Save RAW files in DNG format instead of RAW

mx3

is it possible to save RAW files in DNG format?

options:
1) do not save JPG ( Q: how to view them in camera? )
it seems it is optional.
we can select to make photos in 640x480 with bad jpg compression - for in cam review
RAW file will be in max resolution anyway

2) compressed DNG ( slower )

benefits:
1) no need to convert files
2) no problems with custom EXIF data (?)
3) no problems with new camera models (?)

GrAnd

mx3
is it possible to save RAW files in DNG format?

If do not compress, files will be 50% larger than now.
If compress, the time for saving will be increased to 10 seconds, I guess.
The both ways are not acceptable.

mx3

GrAnd

mx3
is it possible to save RAW files in DNG format?

If do not compress, files will be 50% larger than now.
If compress, the time for saving will be increased to 10 seconds, I guess.
The both ways are not acceptable.

I'm sure some people will not agree with you

just checked:
it takes 5 seconds for my camera(a630+ts2gsdc card) to save files ( 10mb raw + 3,6mb jpg)

lets assume size will be 15 mb for dng + 50kb JPG
I don't see big difference

it is also possible (?) that compression time will be less than SD card write operation
why not to check?

GrAnd

mx3
just checked:
it takes 5 seconds for my camera(a630+ts2gsdc card) to save files ( 10mb raw + 3,6mb jpg)

5 seconds for conversion with compression? Have you already implemented it?

mx3

GrAnd
5 seconds for conversion with compression?

no.
it is time for original build which saves RAW files

GrAnd
Have you already implemented it?

no.

GrAnd

mx3

GrAnd
5 seconds for conversion with compression?

no.
it is time for original build which saves RAW files

I have the time less than a second for saving ~6.5M RAW with ~2.2M JPEG files. You have to try more faster SD-card.

a710is

my cam also saves raw and jpeg in about a sec. I have an OCZ 150x and a Corsair 133x (the Corsair is a bit faster though - 9 MB/s vs 9.5 MB/s

koron7

GrAnd

mx3
is it possible to save RAW files in DNG format?

If do not compress, files will be 50% larger than now.
If compress, the time for saving will be increased to 10 seconds, I guess.
The both ways are not acceptable.

Hi, I have a small question regarding Your assumptions.
From what I've seen in the TIFF/EP and DNG standards, these allow 10bit per sample and it is not mandatory to pad the sample to the 16 bit boundary. The only mandatory thing is to pad each end of the row to the 8it boundary. And from what I've seen, the row sizes are set so this is true without padding.

To summarize, it seems to be possible to achieve basic DNG compatibility (without the preview) just adding a proper header before unaltered raw stream of data from the camera.
Am I right?

Kind regards.

wontolla

Simple compression algorithms won't work on this kind of file. There are no big chunks of similar information (like in text) so there won't be noticeable compression (the file could even grow!).

More elaborate algorithms will take long time to execute. Even more time than saving the "50% larger than now".

The fact that DNG4PS2 converts a file in 0.5 seconds (on my PC) gives a hint on how much time the camera's processor will need to complete the task.

I hope I am totally wrong and someone comes up with DNGs straight from camera. I'd like to help on this but muy problem is that I think it is hopeless.

May be ArtDen can give some input here.

koron7

wontolla: I do understand Your point.
The thing I wrote about is that it seems, that the basic DNG support with uncompressed data should take very little more space than the actual RAW data. That is, the only thing needed would be a proper DNG header. I do hope i'm right here...

TheKrillr

Even if it takes longer to store and takes extra space, I'd love to have DNG support on-camera. I'm tired of having to use dng4ps2 to convert my files before I can shove them into lightroom.

PhyrePhoX

well there is the possibility to convert to dng "offline" - Offline RAW Compress (ZIP / DNG)
has to be coded first though 😁

TheKrillr

PhyrePhoX
well there is the possibility to convert to dng "offline" - Offline RAW Compress (ZIP / DNG)
has to be coded first though 😁

That's not as useful, as then you have to have the RAW and JPEG AND DNG all on your card simultaneously. Direct2DNG is a much better solution I think.

vit40

Well, offline conversion routine could erase raw after conversion to DNG and leave JPG + DNG

But since SD cards are quite cheap right now, I don't hink it's worth the efforts of developers

I'm wondering, is there a procedure to convert raw to "real" cr2 somewhere in the firmware and only needs to be called

Barney Fife

Deleted

mrproper

May I hear one single reason why it's better to have files saved on the card in CRW (RAW) instead of DNG (possibly compressed)?

Think about it this way. Reasons why DNG would be better to be saved instead of CRW:
- less memory card usage (8.79mb - 4.06mb = 4.73mb, as in 46% space reduction to save compressed DNG instead of CRW)
- faster writes on slow cards (3-5mb/s, that's 5 minutes extra saved time for today's shots)
- JPG curves/EXIF integration (in-camera processing)
- JPG files optional (2.7mb for each shot)
- faster memory card download to your PC (3-5mb/s, that's another 5 minutes extra saved time for today's shots)
- less time wasted on your PC with additional software (another 5 minutes extra time saved...)
- less is more (15 minutes saved, 65% extra space for photos, extra coolness factor)

I guess everyone here shooting raw goes through the hassle of downloading CRW + JPG files in a folder, running dng4ps2 on that folder (btw crappy PC here), cleaning up and then actually touching the files for the first time. I'm being picky if I ask for in-camera DNG, but that would be awsome if it could be done. My only regret is leaving ASM/C++ coding 10 years ago...

PhyrePhoX

i never DID write ASM/C++ and still i'm writing code for CHDK - sorry that's not an excuse.
you want to hear a reason? it's fine you tell us all your advantages of dng, but you forget that a) the camera is not a PC and b) chdk devs are NOT a bunch of bill gates'.
sure, DNG conversion has to be coded, it MAY be faster to convert RAW into DNG (in memory) and write it on SD, faster than the HARDCODED original way, but i VERY much doubt it.
i am not the coding guru, if anyone wants to do it - fine.

mrproper

PhyrePhoX
i never DID write ASM/C++ and still i'm writing code for CHDK - sorry that's not an excuse.
you want to hear a reason? it's fine you tell us all your advantages of dng, but you forget that a) the camera is not a PC and b) chdk devs are NOT a bunch of bill gates'.
sure, DNG conversion has to be coded, it MAY be faster to convert RAW into DNG (in memory) and write it on SD, faster than the HARDCODED original way, but i VERY much doubt it.
i am not the coding guru, if anyone wants to do it - fine.

I'm seriously allocating more time in my life for photography, so I hope I'll be around the project more. First I need to get up to speed with everything that CHDK means, so I can't do what I ask others to do, or I would have done it already. I think it's a great improvement to implement and give a complete fully proffesional feel to simple 200$ consumer grade cameras able to perform semi-pro tasks.

BTW, your sig is awsome 😁

And I don't even know what the SKD is based on. Do I need to install some linux, gcc and compile stuff?

PhyrePhoX

<offtopic>
for starters, there is Windows GUI for trunk building - all you need, including gcc & compile stuff 😁 next i would read For Developers - CHDK Wiki .
if you really did asm & c++ your learning curve shouldnt be that steep. have fun 😀
</offtopic>

there is a thread somewhere (toinech?) is trying to apply some curves on the raw files before being written to sdcard, he maybe (or someone else during the process) able to find out a way to do conversion on the fly.

image13

hi,

whatever is running linux or mac-os - it is still big endian (because the powerpc cpu is)

best wishes - image13