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Camera crashes

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Offline JvdP

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Re: Camera crashes
« Reply #10 on: 10 / March / 2014, 18:46:05 »
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I was afraid it would be croastalk/noise. So then the breakout board with supply voltage isn't gonna help anyway. I think srsa_4c is right anyway, it wouldn't change anything.

I'm already using thicker wires. I went from the thin white ribbon (see photo on eBay) to the 28AWG rainbow ribbon.

I'll look into using twisted pair. I'm up for the soldering challenge. I've once successfully replaced an SMD line choke and after that I feel confident ;-)

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Offline ahull

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Re: Camera crashes
« Reply #11 on: 11 / March / 2014, 07:15:03 »
A man versed in the art of the soldering Ninja I see  :D ... crosstalk and reflections would be the most likely culprits in this case I suspect.

The SD card bus length will be important, as this affects how long it takes for the signal to propagate from one end of the wire to the other, and will also affect whether the "reflections" tend to be significant or not.

This might be of some interest... but it doesn't address all of the potential issues. A lot will depend on the cable you use, but a lot too will depend on the laws of physics. In other words, you will probably need to keep the conductors as short as possible, and if you can, screen the individual wires.

Making a custom FPC (ribbon) cable with ground wires between the signal wires would be an option, but perhaps that might be starting to cost more in time and trouble than it is worth, alternatively use individual screened cables for each wire (rip apart an old VGA monitor cable, for a source of thin screened cable).   

A good high speed oscilloscope would also be a help, so you can get some idea of the shape of the signals.
« Last Edit: 11 / March / 2014, 07:20:14 by ahull »
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Offline JvdP

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Re: Camera crashes
« Reply #12 on: 11 / March / 2014, 07:18:34 »
It was exactly my thought when I shortened the cable to prevent noise/signal loss. But it hasn't helped much. This is all really interesting but in the end it is more or less on a hobby basis and I'm not sure I want to write a Master thesis on SD card extensions :lol Thank you for the input though.

Anyway, the newer, better extension I tried yesterday had not worked on one camera. Interesting is that there's basically only 1 camera (out of 3) which is showing problems. I'm actually starting to think that it is the camera and not the extension. Perhaps this camera is more sensitive than the others. The problem is that I can't take the camera down without destroying the time lapse... I've got a serious dilemma in my hands here.

I will perhaps order some twisted pair ribbon or I will simply sacrifice a DVI cable (which seems to have enough cores) which is shielded.

To be continued.

Here is the crashlog of the latest extension cable, which is one of the best ones I've made so far.

Code: [Select]
ASSERT!! SsCreateJpeg.c Line 1519
Occured Time  2014:03:10 14:29:01
Task ID: 50200681
Task name: DvlpSeqTask
SP: 0x00592AB0
StackDump:
0x00000000
0xFF0A5094
0x000005EF
0x0000000B
0x00003588
0x00004800
0x00100000
0x0009DCF4
0x003B0600
0x00000000
0x0009DDA4
0xFF0A5818
0x0000003C
0x00001FFF
0x4CB34400
0x00000000
0x4F59BA00
0x00001FFF
0x00000005
0x0000000B
0x00001FFF
0x4F59BA00
0x00001FFF
0x4CB34400
0x00000000
0x00000040
0x00000018
0x000000A0
0x00000078
0x00000040
0x00000018
0x00000000
0x00000000
0x00000000
0x00003588
0x0009DCF4
0x00003588
0x00000001
0x0009DCF4
0x0000820F
0x00000000
0xFF0A65E0
0x00000000
0x0009D978
0x00000000
0x0009DDA4
0x00003588
0xFF0A6128
0x0068860C
0x0068860C
0x00592BD4
0x00000000
0x00000000
0x006B1E28
0x60000013
0x006B1E28
0x00592BD0
0x00000000
0x19980218
0x19980218
0x19980218
0x00686218
0x00000000
0x0017F1A8
0x00000000
0x0000B6FC
0x19980218
0x19980218
0x19980218
0x19980218
0x19980218
0xFF21A9AC
0x00000000
0x0017F1B4
0x0054148C
0x19980218
0x19980218
0x0068738C
0x19980218
0x19980218
0x0003A010
ShootConDump:
0a 0c 0b 00 00 01 02 07 08 09
CameraConDump:
07 0a 02 0d 09 01 0f 0f 0f 0f
06410980: UI:LogicalEvent:0x3158:adr:0x1,Para:1
06411490: UI:LogicalEvent:0x3158:adr:0,Para:0
06412640: UI:LogicalEvent:0x3158:adr:0x1,Para:1
06412840: UI:LogicalEvent:0x3158:adr:0,Para:0
06413060: UI:Button:0x000009A1:PressSwOne
06413060: UI:DSIC:25,0
06413060: SS:PreBuf
06413060: UI:ShootState:0x1
06413060: UI:ShtCon_Activate
06413060: UI:DispSw: Lock
06413060: UI:ShtCon_PrepareCapture
06413060: UI:DSIC:61,0
06413060: UI:ScreenLock
06413070: UI:ScreenUnLock
06413070: UI:ScreenLock
06413070: UI:ScreenUnLock
06413070: UI:LogicalEvent:0x3135:adr:0,Para:0
06413070: SS:LoadTest:10
06413070: SS:PreCapt
06413080: UI:DisplayPhysicalScreenCBR
06413090: UI:DisplayPhysicalScreenCBR
06413090: UI:ShootState:0x2
06413090: UI:ClearEventComp
06413410: UI:ShootSeqToUI:0x203b:adr:0x4e0c,Para:19980
06413410: UI:DSIC:69,0
06413560: UI:ShootSeqToUI:0x2006:adr:0x45,Para:69
06413560: UI:ShtCon_SetPreCapt
06413560: UI:DSIC:62,1
06413560: UI:ScreenLock
06413590: UI:Button:0x000009A3:PressSwTwo
06413610: UI:ScreenUnLock
06413620: UI:Button:0x000009A4:UnpressSwTwo
06413620: UI:Button:0x000009A2:UnpressSwOne
06413620: UI:_ResetShootingMode
06413630: UI:_EntryPrepareShoot
06413630: UI:ShootState:0x7
06413630: UI:ShootState:0x8
06413630: UI:ShootState:0x9
06413630: UI:DSIC:14,0
06413640: UI:_MuteOn
06413640: UI:DSIC:43,0
06413640: UI:DispSwCon_MuteOnPhysicalScreen
06413640: UI:Window MuteOn
06413640: UI:MuteOnPhysicalScreen
06413640: SS:Shoot
06413650: UI:DSIC:63,0
06413650: UI:ScreenLock
06413660: UI:ScreenUnLock
06413670: UI:ScreenLock
06413670: UI:ScreenUnLock
06413680: UI:ScreenLock
06413680: UI:ScreenUnLock
06413680: UI:DisplayPhysicalScreenCBR
06413680: UI:DisplayPhysicalScreenCBR
06413680: UI:DisplayPhysicalScreenCBR
06413680: UI:DisplayPhysicalScreenCBR
06413710: UI:ShootSeqToUI:0x2022:adr:0xfffffdf5,Para:-523
06413710: UI:DSIC:64,0
06413980: SS:EvfFocusChecker Cbr
06413980: SS:EvfFocusChecker Cbr
06413980: UI:ShootSeqToUI:0x2007:adr:0xa04f,Para:41039
06413980: SS: Raw[1]
06413980: SS: Raw[1]
06413980: SS: Raw[1]
06413980: UI:ShootSeqToUI:0x2001:adr:0,Para:0
06413980: UI:Sht_CancelStrobeChargeTimer
06413980: UI:DSIC:4c,0
06413980: UI:_CaptureStanbyForReview
06414390: UI:ShootSeqToUI:0x2008:adr:0xa04f,Para:41039
06414390: UI:_MuteOff
06414390: UI:DSIC:44,0
06414390: UI:DispSwCon_MuteOffPhysicalScreen
06414390: UI:Window MuteOff
06414390: UI:MuteOffPhysicalScreen
06414390: UI:ShootState:0xA
06414390: UI:ShtCon_StartReview
06414390: UI:ShootState:0xC
06414390: SS:ExitShoot
06414580: UI:DSIC:45,0
06414580: UI:ScreenLock
06414580: UI:ScreenUnLock
06414580: UI:DSIC:48,0
 
« Last Edit: 11 / March / 2014, 07:20:31 by JvdP »
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Offline waterwingz

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Re: Camera crashes
« Reply #13 on: 11 / March / 2014, 08:04:10 »
Quote from: JvdP on 11 / March / 2014, 07:18:34
I will perhaps order some twisted pair ribbon or I will simply sacrifice a DVI cable (which seems to have enough cores) which is shielded.
Converting the cable to something better shielded is a good idea but there is a pretty good chance much of your issue is from ringing (impedance mismatch due to the length of the wires and lack of suitable termination).  Shielding will not help with that - and may also introduce enough capacitance to ground to affect pulse rise times and thus bus timing.

Its worth a shot but be aware that even if you perfectly shield each conductor,  you are not necessarily "out of the woods".
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Ported :   A1200    SD940   G10    Powershot N    G16
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Offline ahull

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Re: Camera crashes
« Reply #14 on: 11 / March / 2014, 09:20:14 »
Quote from: waterwingz on 11 / March / 2014, 08:04:10
Quote from: JvdP on 11 / March / 2014, 07:18:34
I will perhaps order some twisted pair ribbon or I will simply sacrifice a DVI cable (which seems to have enough cores) which is shielded.
Converting the cable to something better shielded is a good idea but there is a pretty good chance much of your issue is from ringing (impedance mismatch due to the length of the wires and lack of suitable termination).  Shielding will not help with that - and may also introduce enough capacitance to ground to affect pulse rise times and thus bus timing.

Its worth a shot but be aware that even if you perfectly shield each conductor,  you are not necessarily "out of the woods".

I agree, the only way I can think of to check the quality of the signals is to fire up an oscilloscope with suitable high frequency probes,  and take a look to see what they look like. I suspect they look pretty awful, but if I had a scope trace, I could probably suggest a way to clean them up.

 Bear in mind we are talking about signals in the 25MHz+ range, potentially as high as or higher than  100MHz for UHS-I, so stray capacitance and signal path length are important. Your conductors will resonate like miniature radio transmitters if their length matches some sub wavelength, hence crosstalk is a likely problem. 

Without a scope trace, I can only suggest you might like to add a pull up resistor by way of termination at either end of each signal line, my random guess for a suitable value would be 47K ... however if this improves things, it will nothing more than a minor triumph of my "gut feeling" circuits, rather than a "correct" solution. 
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Offline JvdP

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Re: Camera crashes
« Reply #15 on: 12 / March / 2014, 11:42:40 »
A small update on the situation.

I took away the extension on the camera that crashed most and found out that it crashed even without the extension!! I now changed this camera (which was really my last resort as I have a several-months-timelapse going from that angle...) and it's running now. Should be able to say if it is successful tomorrow.

Now I have the "Crashy" camera in my office and I'm running a test. So long, it's been taking pictures for a few hours and I might have a crash soon. To be continued. Perhaps this wasn't caused by the extension after all.
« Last Edit: 13 / March / 2014, 06:02:04 by JvdP »
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Offline JvdP

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Re: Camera crashes
« Reply #16 on: 13 / March / 2014, 06:13:55 »
So, I'm scratching my head here. :blink:

Getting rather annoyed, actually.

When I arrived to check on the 2 camera's today I noticed that both had crashed, even the camera which I replaced.

In the meantime, the camera which I took down (which I previously called the "Crashy" camera) has been taking pictures in my office since I turned it on yesterday. It works fine.

At this point I'm starting to think it's nothing wrong with the camera's but it's something with the power supply. The camera's on that location have been used before successfully elsewhere for many days. Also, same CHDK version, same SD cards, same camera settings, same ultimate.lua script. The only difference apart from the location is the power supply.

I've tested taking out the power supply while the camera and script are running but no ROMLOG was created.

My questions at this point:
  • Is the ROMLOG only created in case of a camera crash or is it also created in case the power goes?
  • What is causing the crashes on this location? Could it be the power supply?


I have saved the ROMLOG (although I shortened it due to psot length) from both camera's and written down the timestamp of the last picture on the SD.

Camera 1, last picture taken 13:11:40
Code: [Select]
ASSERT!! SsCreateJpeg.c Line 1519
Occured Time  2014:03:12 13:11:51
Task ID: 49021031
Task name: DvlpSeqTask
SP: 0x00592AB0
StackDump:
...
ShootConDump:
0a 0c 0b 00 00 01 02 07 08 09
CameraConDump:
01 10 0a 02 0d 09 01 0a 02 0d
06939230: UI:DisplayPhysicalScreenCBR
06939230: UI:DisplayPhysicalScreenCBR
06939230: UI:DisplayPhysicalScreenCBR
06940180: UI:DSIC:48,0
06941660: UI:ScreenLock
06941660: UI:ScreenUnLock
06941680: UI:DisplayPhysicalScreenCBR
06947030: UI:Button:0x000009A1:PressSwOne
06947030: UI:DSIC:25,0
06947030: SS:PreBuf
06947030: UI:ShootState:0x1
06947030: UI:ShtCon_Activate
06947030: UI:DispSw: Lock
06947030: UI:ShtCon_PrepareCapture
06947030: UI:DSIC:61,0
06947030: UI:ScreenLock
06947040: UI:ScreenUnLock
06947040: UI:ScreenLock
06947040: UI:ScreenUnLock
06947040: UI:LogicalEvent:0x3135:adr:0,Para:0
06947040: SS:LoadTest:10
06947040: SS:PreCapt
06947050: UI:DisplayPhysicalScreenCBR
06947050: UI:DisplayPhysicalScreenCBR
06947050: UI:ShootState:0x2
06947050: UI:ClearEventComp
06947390: UI:ShootSeqToUI:0x203b:adr:0x4e0c,Para:19980
06947390: UI:DSIC:69,0
06947550: UI:ShootSeqToUI:0x2006:adr:0x45,Para:69
06947550: UI:ShtCon_SetPreCapt
06947550: UI:DSIC:62,1
06947550: UI:ScreenLock
06947570: UI:Button:0x000009A3:PressSwTwo
06947600: UI:Button:0x000009A4:UnpressSwTwo
06947600: UI:Button:0x000009A2:UnpressSwOne
06947600: UI:ScreenUnLock
06947610: UI:_ResetShootingMode
06947610: UI:_EntryPrepareShoot
06947610: UI:ShootState:0x7
06947620: UI:ShootState:0x8
06947620: UI:ShootState:0x9
06947620: UI:DSIC:14,0
06947620: UI:_MuteOn
06947620: UI:DSIC:43,0
06947620: UI:DispSwCon_MuteOnPhysicalScreen
06947620: UI:Window MuteOn
06947620: UI:MuteOnPhysicalScreen
06947620: SS:Shoot
06947630: UI:DSIC:63,0
06947630: UI:ScreenLock
06947640: UI:ScreenUnLock
06947660: UI:ScreenLock
06947660: UI:ScreenUnLock
06947660: UI:ScreenLock
06947660: UI:ScreenUnLock
06947670: UI:DisplayPhysicalScreenCBR
06947670: UI:DisplayPhysicalScreenCBR
06947670: UI:DisplayPhysicalScreenCBR
06947670: UI:DisplayPhysicalScreenCBR
06947700: UI:ShootSeqToUI:0x2022:adr:0xfffffdf5,Para:-523
06947700: UI:DSIC:64,0
06947990: SS:EvfFocusChecker Cbr
06947990: SS:EvfFocusChecker Cbr
06947990: UI:ShootSeqToUI:0x2007:adr:0x9b7c,Para:39804
06947990: SS: Raw[1]
06947990: SS: Raw[1]
06947990: SS: Raw[1]
06947990: UI:ShootSeqToUI:0x2001:adr:0,Para:0
06947990: UI:Sht_CancelStrobeChargeTimer
06947990: UI:DSIC:4c,0
06947990: UI:_CaptureStanbyForReview
06948400: UI:ShootSeqToUI:0x2008:adr:0x9b7c,Para:39804
06948400: UI:_MuteOff
06948400: UI:DSIC:44,0
06948400: UI:DispSwCon_MuteOffPhysicalScreen
06948400: UI:Window MuteOff
06948400: UI:MuteOffPhysicalScreen
06948400: UI:ShootState:0xA
06948400: UI:ShtCon_StartReview
06948400: UI:ShootState:0xC
06948400: SS:ExitShoot
06948540: UI:DSIC:45,0
06948540: UI:ScreenLock
06948540: UI:ScreenUnLock
06948540: UI:DSIC:48,0
Camera 2, last picture taken 14:04:30
Code: [Select]
ASSERT!! SsCreateJpeg.c Line 917
Occured Time  2014:03:12 14:05:43
Task ID: 49873000
Task name: DvlpSeqTask
SP: 0x00592AA0
StackDump:
...
ShootConDump:
14 15 0b 00 00 01 02 07 08 09
CameraConDump:
07 0a 02 0d 09 01 0f 0f 0f 0f
11226970: UI:DisplayPhysicalScreenCBR
11226970: UI:DisplayPhysicalScreenCBR
11227100: UI:DSIC:48,0
11229460: UI:ScreenLock
11229460: UI:ScreenUnLock
11229480: UI:DisplayPhysicalScreenCBR
11232030: UI:Button:0x000009A1:PressSwOne
11232030: UI:DSIC:25,0
11232030: SS:PreBuf
11232030: UI:ShootState:0x1
11232030: UI:ShtCon_Activate
11232030: UI:DispSw: Lock
11232030: UI:ShtCon_PrepareCapture
11232030: UI:DSIC:61,0
11232030: UI:ScreenLock
11232040: UI:ScreenUnLock
11232040: UI:ScreenLock
11232040: UI:ScreenUnLock
11232040: UI:LogicalEvent:0x3135:adr:0,Para:0
11232040: SS:LoadTest:10
11232040: SS:PreCapt
11232050: UI:DisplayPhysicalScreenCBR
11232050: UI:DisplayPhysicalScreenCBR
11232050: UI:ShootState:0x2
11232050: UI:ClearEventComp
11232280: UI:ShootSeqToUI:0x203b:adr:0x4e0c,Para:19980
11232310: UI:DSIC:69,0
11232430: UI:ShootSeqToUI:0x2006:adr:0x45,Para:69
11232430: UI:ShtCon_SetPreCapt
11232430: UI:DSIC:62,1
11232430: UI:ScreenLock
11232450: UI:Button:0x000009A3:PressSwTwo
11232480: UI:Button:0x000009A4:UnpressSwTwo
11232480: UI:Button:0x000009A2:UnpressSwOne
11232480: UI:ScreenUnLock
11232490: UI:_ResetShootingMode
11232490: UI:_EntryPrepareShoot
11232490: UI:ShootState:0x7
11232500: UI:ShootState:0x8
11232500: UI:ShootState:0x9
11232500: UI:DSIC:14,0
11232500: UI:_MuteOn
11232500: UI:DSIC:43,0
11232500: UI:DispSwCon_MuteOnPhysicalScreen
11232500: UI:Window MuteOn
11232500: UI:MuteOnPhysicalScreen
11232500: SS:Shoot
11232510: UI:DSIC:63,0
11232510: UI:ScreenLock
11232520: UI:ScreenUnLock
11232540: UI:ScreenLock
11232540: UI:ScreenUnLock
11232540: UI:ScreenLock
11232550: UI:ScreenUnLock
11232550: UI:DisplayPhysicalScreenCBR
11232550: UI:DisplayPhysicalScreenCBR
11232550: UI:DisplayPhysicalScreenCBR
11232550: UI:DisplayPhysicalScreenCBR
11232580: UI:ShootSeqToUI:0x2022:adr:0xfffffdf5,Para:-523
11232580: UI:DSIC:64,0
11235530: SS:EvfFocusChecker Cbr
11235530: SS:EvfFocusChecker Cbr
11235530: UI:ShootSeqToUI:0x2007:adr:0xdd0d,Para:56589
11235530: SS: Raw[1]
11235530: SS: Raw[1]
11235530: SS: Raw[1]
11235530: UI:_StopBlinkSelfTimerLamp

11235530: UI:ShootSeqToUI:0x2001:adr:0,Para:0
11235530: UI:Sht_CancelStrobeChargeTimer
11235530: UI:DSIC:4c,0
11235530: UI:_CaptureStanbyForReview
11235940: UI:ShootSeqToUI:0x2008:adr:0xdd0d,Para:56589
11235940: UI:_MuteOff
11235940: UI:DSIC:44,0
11235940: UI:DispSwCon_MuteOffPhysicalScreen
11235940: UI:Window MuteOff
11235940: UI:MuteOffPhysicalScreen
11235940: UI:ShootState:0x14
11235940: UI:ShtCon_StartReview
11235940: UI:ShootState:0x15
11235940: UI:ShtCon_StopReview
11235940: UI:_fResExSeq=TRUE
« Last Edit: 13 / March / 2014, 06:18:36 by JvdP »
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Offline Microfunguy

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Re: Camera crashes
« Reply #17 on: 13 / March / 2014, 07:36:33 »
You really cannot extend such a high-speed connection that also requires clean, fast nought-to-one transitions.
If it was the power supply why would it affect jpg saving ?

You do not want to hear this but I do not have these problems simply because I use an older camera where external power and SD card access are both via the side of the camera.

The cameras are inexpensive and at 7mp provide more than enough resolution for timelapse.
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Offline waterwingz

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Re: Camera crashes
« Reply #18 on: 13 / March / 2014, 08:16:34 »
Quote from: JvdP on 13 / March / 2014, 06:13:55
At this point I'm starting to think it's nothing wrong with the camera's but it's something with the power supply. The camera's on that location have been used before successfully elsewhere for many days. Also, same CHDK version, same SD cards, same camera settings, same ultimate.lua script. The only difference apart from the location is the power supply.
So swap out the power supply and test your theory?   I don't recall if you posted what you are using for your supplies, but the electrolytic caps on the output of the cheap Chinese supply I use for my A1200 failed.  The supply still put our voltage and the camera would run.  But it would always crash after a while.  So I cut the case open and replaced them - easy job if you have the tools and parts.
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Ported :   A1200    SD940   G10    Powershot N    G16
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Offline JvdP

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Re: Camera crashes
« Reply #19 on: 13 / March / 2014, 08:18:52 »
Quote from: Microfunguy on 13 / March / 2014, 07:36:33
You really cannot extend such a high-speed connection that also requires clean, fast nought-to-one transitions.
If it was the power supply why would it affect jpg saving ?

You do not want to hear this but I do not have these problems simply because I use an older camera where external power and SD card access are both via the side of the camera.

The cameras are inexpensive and at 7mp provide more than enough resolution for timelapse.
At this point, I'm not blaming anything on the extension any longer. The camera also crashes with the SD card mounted straight in the camera.

Quote from: waterwingz on 13 / March / 2014, 08:16:34
So swap out the power supply and test your theory?   I don't recall if you posted what you are using for your supplies, but the electrolytic caps on the output of the cheap Chinese supply I use for my A1200 failed.  The supply still put our voltage and the camera would run.  But it would always crash after a while.  So I cut the case open and replaced them - easy job if you have the tools and parts.
This is my next move, although I have very little hope because as Microfunguy mentioned: the crashes seem unrelated.

Also, I have tested these camera's and power supplies for many days on end without problems. So why do they have problems in that location?



For a while I thought that perhaps people in that location (there's always a lot of people around where I shoot) take the power supply from the socket. But since the ROMLOG show a crash I think this scenario is ruled out.
« Last Edit: 13 / March / 2014, 08:34:53 by JvdP »
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