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Looking to buy multi camera rig application

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Offline novsela

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Looking to buy multi camera rig application
« on: 01 / June / 2014, 16:54:03 »
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Dear Sirs

I am interesting in multi camera rig for bullet time / matrix / 360 deg.
I read some articles such as ,http://chdk.setepontos.com/index.php?topic=11263.msg110534#msg110534 ------ AMAZING!!!! and I want to try

Since I am less familiar with code , I am looking to purchase working code.

I found a good price on Canon A1400 cameras and I consider using its in this project

I would appreciate your assistance

Regards

Noam
(Available @ skype : noamsheffi) 
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Offline waterwingz

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Re: Looking to buy multi camera rig application
« Reply #1 on: 01 / June / 2014, 17:33:10 »
There is nothing to "purchase" with CHDK - the source code and compiled install files are all available for download.  You really only need to download, install and configure your cameras.

Connecting them all to a PC can be a bit trickier.  Basically you need a lot of USB hubs and some PC software that speaks PTP  (picture taking protocol).  Look for the section on chdkptp here : http://chdk.wikia.com/wiki/PTP_Extension

There are several ways to implement bullet time rigs.  However, the use of the "third battery terminal" method will not work with the A1400 as it uses conventional AA batteries.  More info on that here :  http://chdk.setepontos.com/index.php?topic=10385.0

A few other useful links :
http://chdk.setepontos.com/index.php?topic=10220.msg103568#msg103568
http://chdk.setepontos.com/index.php?topic=10385.msg110340#msg110340
http://chdk.setepontos.com/index.php?topic=11121
http://chdk.setepontos.com/index.php?topic=8769.msg105266#msg105266
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Offline Microfunguy

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Re: Looking to buy multi camera rig application
« Reply #2 on: 01 / June / 2014, 19:27:17 »
Quote from: novsela on 01 / June / 2014, 16:54:03
I am looking to purchase working code.

I am only aware of two successfully implemented multicamera rigs that use modified versions of reyalp's multicam code.

The last three posters to this webpage requested script details :-

http://www.artanim.ch/blog/2014/02/building-your-own-3d-scanner/#comment-516

Martin Hoppe (karmaschinken) also promised to post his script.

Maybe you could contact them directly.


David
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Offline waterwingz

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Re: Looking to buy multi camera rig application
« Reply #3 on: 01 / June / 2014, 20:25:55 »
Quote from: Microfunguy on 01 / June / 2014, 19:27:17
I am only aware of two successfully implemented multicamera rigs that use modified versions of reyalp's multicam code.
Judging by the traffic in the various PTP threads in this forum and on the high technical quality of the questions,  I would expect there are a lot more success stories out there than the two of which you are aware.   The CHDK ptp implementation and the PC toolbase are quite impressive.

But once people have solved the problem(s) which they came to this forum to address,  they tend to not come back. Busy taking "bullet time" pictures I expect.
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Offline novsela

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Re: Looking to buy multi camera rig application
« Reply #4 on: 03 / June / 2014, 02:35:49 »
thx

I commit to post the code once it is done

I saw today additional software - gphoto (2) , it looks like it can manage the camera .remote shutter & download pic.

Have you know / used this software ?

Regards
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Offline Microfunguy

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Re: Looking to buy multi camera rig application
« Reply #5 on: 03 / June / 2014, 04:18:34 »
Quote from: novsela on 03 / June / 2014, 02:35:49
.Have you know / used this software ?

I certainly know it and it has been used for multicamera operations using scripts and something called the gnome virtual file system.
The A1400 is supported but gPhoto only runs on the Linux operating system.

It is not really suitable for the average user, who would not be using Linux anyway.

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Offline waterwingz

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Re: Looking to buy multi camera rig application
« Reply #6 on: 03 / June / 2014, 11:06:30 »
Quote from: novsela on 03 / June / 2014, 02:35:49
I saw today additional software - gphoto (2) , it looks like it can manage the camera .remote shutter & download pic.  Have you know / used this software ?
There are few different methods of getting a PC to communicate with a camera. gphoto is just one of them and while it only runs on Linux it does not require any special file system. This link (previously posted here) takes you to some other utilities.    And many older Canon Powershot models even came with such capability and software.

However, if you are looking to build a rig with multiple cameras, there are several complications that you need to consider.  I've listed the top four here with the most complex / difficult / important items first.

  • Shot triggering.   Unless your subject is perfectly stationary,  you really need the cameras to all take their images at almost exactly the same time. Roughly speaking, this means within about 1 millisecond of each other.   Typical software polling schemes via USB are unlikely to achieve better than 100 millisecond syncronizaion (my somewhat informed guess) so this limits what you can have for a subject.
  • Image handling. Unless you are prepared to manually remove the SD cards from every camera after a photoshoot and manually sync the images on your PC, you need some method of downloading from multiple cameras and organizing the images on your PC.
  • Power.  Trying to manage charging batteries for multiple cameras and keeping them all running quickly becomes impossible.
  • Start up. Turning on all the cameras can be a big job, and getting them all into the same configuration can be a challenge too.

Solutions ?

  • Shot triggering.  The CHDK USB or A/D channel remote shooting capability, with suitable external switch hardware can hancle this for you.   If you go with  the USB remote method,  you may need a hack to allow you to share the USB port between the triggering and image download functions.  The A/D channel trigger scheme is cleaner but only works on camera with a three (or four) terminal Li battery (i.e. not the A1400)
  • Image handling.   Typically this can be handled via CHDK PTP software (or other variants of that) and multiple USB hubs.  There are several forum threads on this and help is available here or the CHDK IRC channel.  One approach is to use multiple Raspberry Pi's to split the load if you have a lot of cameas.
  • Power.  No surprise here - you are going to need external power supplies.  Amazon & eBay sell inexpensive supplies for pretty much every Canon camera model  ($10-$20 ea) made in China.  The quality of those can vary a lot.  Plan on purchasing quite a few spares. The official Canon supplies are very good but cost around $60 ea.  You can also "roll your own" supplies using cheap DC/DC switching power supply modules and bulk power supplies.  Be careful about net power draw, grounding and wiring if you go this route.
  • Start up. There is not really an easy way to turn all the camera's on at once under network/usb/software control.  Unless you want to manually press every power button, you really need to user a device to physically clamp the power button down on each camera and then start them by supplying external power (see item 3 above).  After that,  you can have a CHDK startup script on each camera set them all to the same settings. You can also use CHDK to prevent the cameras from retracting the lens automatically after a period of inactivity.

I'm sure there are other things to worry about - these have jumped out as the biggest items of concern on this forum.  And there are probably other solutions that others will post here.

What do you need to know next ?
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Offline Microfunguy

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Re: Looking to buy multi camera rig application
« Reply #7 on: 03 / June / 2014, 13:02:55 »
Quote from: waterwingz on 03 / June / 2014, 11:06:30
while it only runs on Linux it does not require any special file system..

You misunderstand, I am saying it HAS been used in multicam applications together with gvfs and scripts.
I am not saying gvfs IS required with gPhoto.
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Offline novsela

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Re: Looking to buy multi camera rig application
« Reply #8 on: 04 / June / 2014, 14:14:41 »
Before all, thank you for your amazing support !!!!

waterwingz ,

1. Shot triggering. - What is A/D channel remote ? if I used Canon A2500 with Li battery could I used is ? I heard about SDM , what can I get using SDM ?

2.  Image handling.    Planning to use 25 cameras at first (still it is Hugh investment ) , shall I need Raspberry Pi' for 25 cams ?

3. Power.  - I went with A1400 because i am planning to use external power supply for power up the cameras

4. Start up.  - for now it will be manual  ;)


Do u have code for 1 /2/4 ?


I contact Marcus Meissner , he told me tht tat the moment gPhoto downsnt support my goal using Canon A1400 ,  so it looks like I will use CHDK , CHDK PTP


Is multicam.lua part of CHDK PTP?

Regards
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Offline waterwingz

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Re: Looking to buy multi camera rig application
« Reply #9 on: 04 / June / 2014, 15:37:30 »
Quote from: novsela on 04 / June / 2014, 14:14:41
1. Shot triggering. - What is A/D channel remote ?
The standard way to trigger a CHDK equipped camera is by applying voltage to the USB port +5 input pin.
http://chdk.wikia.com/wiki/USB_Remote
There is an additional trick available with CHDK where you can trigger a shot by essentially shorting out the battery temperature sensor - if your camera uses a battery that has such a sensor

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I heard about SDM , what can I get using SDM ?
Purportedly, SDM has been also used for multi-camera rigs.  But it's proprietary software - the current source is not available.  AFAIK, there is no support for some key CHDK features like battery 3rd terminal, precision sync for every camera model, and advanced PTP functionality.   The author of SDM likes to communicate via offline email and PM's when it comes to sharing technical details.  Feel free to send him an email at microfunguy at gmail dot com or via PM here : http://chdk.setepontos.com/index.php?action=profile;u=80

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if I used Canon A2500 with Li battery could I used is ?
No - because the A2500 does not support batteries with a built in temperature sensor.  It just uses standard AA cells.

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2.  Image handling.    Planning to use 25 cameras at first (still it is Hugh investment ) , shall I need Raspberry Pi' for 25 cams ?
I don't think so.  It might take a little longer to download a lot of images but you should be fine.

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3. Power.  - I went with A1400 because i am planning to use external power supply for power up the cameras
There are external power supply choices for pretty much every Canon P&S camera.

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Do u have code for 1 /2/4 ?
Part 1 is built-in to CHDK.  Part two requires some scripting work on your PC - you may be able to get scripts from some of the people who have implemented bullet time rigs.  Part four is trivially easy to implement and customize.

Quote
Is multicam.lua part of CHDK PTP?
Yes - it comes with the build package.
« Last Edit: 04 / June / 2014, 15:43:46 by waterwingz »
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