Av/Tv/P/Av+Tv/Sv ...-modes natively in CHDK. - Feature Requests - CHDK Forum
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Av/Tv/P/Av+Tv/Sv ...-modes natively in CHDK.

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Offline oid_maps

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Av/Tv/P/Av+Tv/Sv ...-modes natively in CHDK.
« on: 30 / June / 2014, 16:26:19 »
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Would like to have the functionality of the "CHDKplus"-script [http://chdk.wikia.com/wiki/Special:WikiaConfirmEmail/a41fe9bf0a4eb9e724760895323abac1] (i.e. an Av, Tv, M, P-mode realised via CHDK, so bringing it to cameras which don't have it) realised directly in CHDK and not via script. I.e. the following functionality:

Tv-mode:
* User sets e.g. exposure time,
* camera calculates needed f-stop/ ND-filter/ ISO-value (customisable).
(when this is dificult to measure by CHDK directly, them maybe by letting the canon-firmware do that stuff, read out what the canon-firmware would do, but set the exposure time to the user-requested value and adapt the Av and ISO-values appropriately)

Similarly for Av, Tv+Av (fix f-stop and exposure and only change iso), etc.


Why native in CHDK?
--> CHDKplus-script still makes usage a bit complicated due to the way CHDK handles scripts (and maybe it is processing overhead since it is a script and not compiled code).

Also, add the functionality for video mode.
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Offline waterwingz

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Re: Av/Tv/P/Av+Tv/Sv ...-modes natively in CHDK.
« Reply #1 on: 30 / June / 2014, 18:11:51 »
Quote from: oid_maps on 30 / June / 2014, 16:26:19
Why native in CHDK?
--> CHDKplus-script still makes usage a bit complicated due to the way CHDK handles scripts (and maybe it is processing overhead since it is a script and not compiled code).
You can setup CHDK to automatically run the script at startup or when you press the <ALT> key, or you can put it in the User Menu so that you can select it when you enter <ALT> mode.  This is no more complicated that starting it from a CHDK menu if it was in core CHDK code.

I would suggest that maybe what you are really looking for is a different UI method for launching scripts?  I've looked in the past at having the User Menu let you actually start scripts rather than just load them.  Even better might be the ability to assign script launch to a camera button - we have also talked about custom button mapping in the past but nothing has been done on that.

And FWIW,  you won't see a processing overhead difference between either implementation.

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Also, add the functionality for video mode.
So far video mode manual control is a hack that does not work well, if at all, on many cameras.  So adding it to core CHDK is probably not a good idea.

Edit : with a little more thought, having the existing "Enhanced Photo Operations" override setting for Tv, Av, Sv act more like conventional Tv priority,  Av priority and ISO adjust modes seems to make quite a bit of sense.  As it stands now, the camera pick's its own values for the settings not overridden and they will usually not result in the correct exposure.
« Last Edit: 30 / June / 2014, 18:32:04 by waterwingz »
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Offline oid_maps

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Re: Av/Tv/P/Av+Tv/Sv ...-modes natively in CHDK.
« Reply #2 on: 30 / June / 2014, 18:40:28 »
Quote from: waterwingz on 30 / June / 2014, 18:11:51
Quote from: oid_maps on 30 / June / 2014, 16:26:19
Why native in CHDK?
--> CHDKplus-script still makes usage a bit complicated due to the way CHDK handles scripts (and maybe it is processing overhead since it is a script and not compiled code).
You can setup CHDK to automatically run the script at startup or when you press the <ALT> key, or you can put it in the User Menu so that you can select it when you enter <ALT> mode.  This is no more complicated that starting it from a CHDK menu if it was in core CHDK code.

I know this!,
autostart is annoying when I am in video-mode or when I enter <ALT>-mode for something else.

Quote from: waterwingz on 30 / June / 2014, 18:11:51
I would suggest that maybe what you are really looking for is a different UI method for launching scripts?  I've looked in the past at having the User Menu let you actually start scripts rather than just load them.  Even better might be the ability to assign script launch to a camera button - we have also talked about custom button mapping in the past but nothing has been done on that.

Not really; when I use the script, I cannot leave <ALT>-mode without loosing the functionality of the script; or with the CHDKPlus-script I can (at least when it autostarts at poweron) but then when I press the buttons to change the settings of the script the button-presses get also interpreted by the canon-firmware.

So, starting via the user-menu could be fine,
autostart is NOT an option,
I want to be able to leave <ALT>-mode (and do some stuff with the canon-firmware) and then enter the UI of the CHDKplus-script again.


And that seems to be easy with stuff directly implemented in CHDK (e.g. the "normal" overrides).

Quote from: waterwingz on 30 / June / 2014, 18:11:51
Edit : with a little more thought, having the existing "Enhanced Photo Operations" override setting for Tv, Av, Sv act more like conventional Tv priority,  Av priority and ISO adjust modes seems to make quite a bit of sense.  As it stands now, the camera pick's its own values for the settings not overridden and they will usually not result in the correct exposure.

Yes, sth. like that. It makes no sense when the non-overridden settings get set automatically (by the canon-firmware) to some values that not yield correct exposure.


Thanks for reply.
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* Other manufacturers:
  - Pentax K10D (Firmware 1.31)
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Offline fabri22

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Re: Av/Tv/P/Av+Tv/Sv ...-modes natively in CHDK.
« Reply #3 on: 30 / June / 2014, 19:39:05 »
Quote from: oid_maps on 30 / June / 2014, 18:40:28
I know this!,
autostart is annoying when I am in video-mode or when I enter <ALT>-mode for something else.
You don't need autostart to run that script. Select it via menu just once and it will stay there ready to start when entering the <ALT> mode. Even if you power cycle the camera.
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So, starting via the user-menu could be fine,
autostart is NOT an option,
I want to be able to leave <ALT>-mode (and do some stuff with the canon-firmware) and then enter the UI of the CHDKplus-script again.
If CHDKplus is running just press the Menu key then <ALT> key to do some stuff with the canon firmware.
When entering the <ALT> mode again CHDKplus is ready to start ... as i said.
It seems to me far to be "complicated"  ::)
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Offline waterwingz

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Re: Av/Tv/P/Av+Tv/Sv ...-modes natively in CHDK.
« Reply #4 on: 30 / June / 2014, 20:17:03 »
Quote from: oid_maps on 30 / June / 2014, 18:40:28
Quote from: waterwingz on 30 / June / 2014, 18:11:51
Edit : with a little more thought, having the existing "Enhanced Photo Operations" override setting for Tv, Av, Sv act more like conventional Tv priority,  Av priority and ISO adjust modes seems to make quite a bit of sense.  As it stands now, the camera pick's its own values for the settings not overridden and they will usually not result in the correct exposure.

Yes, sth. like that. It makes no sense when the non-overridden settings get set automatically (by the canon-firmware) to some values that not yield correct exposure.
This would be a big change but makes a lot of sense. Coding it is pretty much the easy part once there is agreement that it's what we want to do.
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Offline reyalp

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Re: Av/Tv/P/Av+Tv/Sv ...-modes natively in CHDK.
« Reply #5 on: 30 / June / 2014, 23:43:26 »
Quote from: oid_maps on 30 / June / 2014, 16:26:19
(and maybe it is processing overhead since it is a script and not compiled code).
Your other comments make sense, but this one is not remotely significant.

I'm not totally averse to adding "priority" modes to CHDK, but if the complaint is that using script is clunky, it might be better to find a way to make scripts integrate more seamlessly with the UI. To replicate the CHDKPlus script, you would also need some UI implemented in CHDK, and without substantial effort that would be clunky too.

I'm not convinced that changing the overrides to behave as priority modes when some are unset would be a good thing. While having the results "undefined" when you don't set all the values isn't very useful, at least the individual values do exactly what they say.
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Offline waterwingz

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Re: Av/Tv/P/Av+Tv/Sv ...-modes natively in CHDK.
« Reply #6 on: 01 / July / 2014, 13:25:00 »
Quote from: reyalp on 30 / June / 2014, 23:43:26
I'm not totally averse to adding "priority" modes to CHDK, but if the complaint is that using script is clunky, it might be better to find a way to make scripts integrate more seamlessly with the UI. To replicate the CHDKPlus script, you would also need some UI implemented in CHDK, and without substantial effort that would be clunky too.
I've been giving this some thought.  The < ALT > screen really does not do much. You can press MENU, or use the shortcuts, or start the current script but it's mostly a waste of screen space.  What if something equivalent to CHDKplus was available there?  Same key mapping's the Lua script uses would work and when you exit ALT the exposure settings picked there could be active in regular Canon mode.   You can simulate this a bit with the script set to launch "on ALT" but the settings don't stay when you return to Canon mode.

I also have given some thought to allowing a special script to run whatever you have the ALT screen open so that users could customize their ALT screens themselves. But that does not allow settings to stay when you go back to Canon mode unless the script sets the override menu parameters for example.  And even that would not be sufficient to implement anything but M mode.  Unless we add TV and Av priority modes to the core (see below)

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I'm not convinced that changing the overrides to behave as priority modes when some are unset would be a good thing. While having the results "undefined" when you don't set all the values isn't very useful, at least the individual values do exactly what they say.
So leave the existing overrides and add menu options to enable TV, Av priority modes?  You would have to keep going back to the CHDK menu to change the TV or Av setpoint but that would be better than what we have now.
« Last Edit: 01 / July / 2014, 13:27:28 by waterwingz »
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Offline oid_maps

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Re: Av/Tv/P/Av+Tv/Sv ...-modes natively in CHDK.
« Reply #7 on: 01 / July / 2014, 17:34:18 »
Quote from: reyalp on 30 / June / 2014, 23:43:26
Quote from: oid_maps on 30 / June / 2014, 16:26:19
(and maybe it is processing overhead since it is a script and not compiled code).
Your other comments make sense, but this one is not remotely significant.

I for myself do not know what the overhead and "delay" of the script interpreter is.

Quote from: reyalp on 30 / June / 2014, 23:43:26
I'm not totally averse to adding "priority" modes to CHDK, but if the complaint is that using script is clunky,

No it's not the only thing. And no, please to not interpret my posting as "complaint". More like a "feature request" as this is the title of this subforum. And as always, a "feature request" is something i do no expect to get implemented (I am not your customer (-: ) but in case it gets I would be happy.


Quote from: waterwingz on 01 / July / 2014, 13:25:00
Quote from: reyalp on 30 / June / 2014, 23:43:26
I'm not convinced that changing the overrides to behave as priority modes when some are unset would be a good thing. While having the results "undefined" when you don't set all the values isn't very useful, at least the individual values do exactly what they say.
So leave the existing overrides and add menu options to enable TV, Av priority modes?  You would have to keep going back to the CHDK menu to change the TV or Av setpoint but that would be better than what we have now.

That's more what I mean. To calculate the "undefined" values (undefined, because they are not overridden but calculated by canon-firmware to yield settings wich are in many cases useless). Behaviour Could be enabled/disabled by an toggle switch, or customised what to calculate if more than one option is undefined. I think it would be really easy to use then -- when people use the overrides anyway, leaving some settings not-overriden they can get calculated to give correct exposure (taking into account the Ev-shift).

Othe side of the argument -- if we say everything can be done by script -- why are there the overrides at all available in CHDK? Because it's an easy and direct way to use the functionality!

One can put the menu option in the user menu.



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Offline reyalp

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Re: Av/Tv/P/Av+Tv/Sv ...-modes natively in CHDK.
« Reply #8 on: 02 / July / 2014, 02:24:29 »
Quote from: oid_maps on 01 / July / 2014, 17:34:18
No it's not the only thing. And no, please to not interpret my posting as "complaint".
I only meant "complaint" in terms of why chdkplus is not an adequate solution.

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I think it would be really easy to use then -- when people use the overrides anyway, leaving some settings not-overriden they can get calculated to give correct exposure (taking into account the Ev-shift).
How often would this actually be able to give you correct exposure?
On cameras without an adjustable aperture, there is only a limited limited number of scenarios:
1) Set ISO, leave shutter unset
You can already do this in the Canon firmware, just set the ISO and use P mode.
2) Set shutter, leave ISO unset
You can't get this from the Canon firmware, since Auto ISO will adjust both shutter and ISO.  However, given the limited range of ISO available and poor quality at the high end, you probably want something more like "custom auto ISO" in practice. Too bad custom auto iso is so confusing...
3) Set both to a fixed value. You can already do this, although the override UI is quite inconvenient for general shooting.

There is the ND filter on top of these, but it's quite limited. In most cases, you only want it in if you are already at minimum ISO, and the shutter speed required to get acceptable exposure is too high. It would be nice to allow the shutter speed to go a bit over the canon factory range before putting the ND in. You might also want to force a longer exposure in some cases, but with ~3 stops this is fairly marginal.

On cameras that do have an adjustable aperture, you already have Tv, Av and M, and Auto ISO in the Canon firmware. So unless the CHDK logic is more sophisticated than these (for example, by letting you set multiple priority levels and limits for the different values), having CHDK versions as the default alt screen would just be confusing.

So it seems to me the main issue isn't the unset values, it's having a better UI to interact with them while shooting, and possible having better control of the priorities. I agree this would be nice to have in CHDK, but I think it would be a quite a large project to get it right.
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Offline waterwingz

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Re: Av/Tv/P/Av+Tv/Sv ...-modes natively in CHDK.
« Reply #9 on: 02 / July / 2014, 08:12:21 »
Quote from: reyalp on 02 / July / 2014, 02:24:29

2) Set shutter, leave ISO unset
You can't get this from the Canon firmware, since Auto ISO will adjust both shutter and ISO.  However, given the limited range of ISO available and poor quality at the high end, you probably want something more like "custom auto ISO" in practice. Too bad custom auto iso is so confusing...
What you are describing is alternatives to a Tv priority mode.  Why not just implement Tv priority mode then? It's what I use CHDKplus.lua mostly for. If I'm outdoors and want to freeze action I ask for 1/1000.  If I want better quality still images,  I ask for 1/60.  Both well within the range of acceptable ISO values usually.

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bad custom auto iso is so confusing...
Possible solution - CHDKplus's  / kap_uav.lua ISO+ mode converted to C

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So it seems to me the main issue isn't the unset values, it's having a better UI to interact with them while shooting, and possible having better control of the priorities. I agree this would be nice to have in CHDK, but I think it would be a quite a large project to get it right.
That's where I was going with this post :  http://chdk.setepontos.com/index.php?topic=11642.msg114055#msg114055
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