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Av/Tv/P/Av+Tv/Sv ...-modes natively in CHDK.

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Offline reyalp

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Re: Av/Tv/P/Av+Tv/Sv ...-modes natively in CHDK.
« Reply #10 on: 03 / July / 2014, 01:45:25 »
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Quote from: waterwingz on 02 / July / 2014, 08:12:21
What you are describing is alternatives to a Tv priority mode.
Not really. I'm arguing that a straight Tv mode doesn't serve you very well, especially when the only other variable is ISO.
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If I'm outdoors and want to freeze action I ask for 1/1000.  If I want better quality still images,  I ask for 1/60.  Both well within the range of acceptable ISO values usually.
That's better than nothing, but it seems like what you really want is "use a fast shutter speed until the ISO gets really high" in the first case and "use the lowest ISO possible until the shutter speed gets down to 1/60th" in the second. This sounds a lot like "custom auto ISO", except that you'd want a more convenient and comprehensible UI.

In terms of making CHDK overrides adjust the unset parameters, if someone has a specific ISO set in the Canon menu and overrides the shutter, should CHDK mess with the ISO?
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Offline waterwingz

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Re: Av/Tv/P/Av+Tv/Sv ...-modes natively in CHDK.
« Reply #11 on: 03 / July / 2014, 07:28:48 »
Quote from: reyalp on 03 / July / 2014, 01:45:25
Quote from: waterwingz on 02 / July / 2014, 08:12:21
What you are describing is alternatives to a Tv priority mode.
Not really. I'm arguing that a straight Tv mode doesn't serve you very well, especially when the only other variable is ISO.
I agree.  But straight Tv mode is something "standard" that photographers understand and expect. Can you imagine the howl if the next G17 or Canon/Nikon DSLR was released without it?

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That's better than nothing, but it seems like what you really want is "use a fast shutter speed until the ISO gets really high" in the first case and "use the lowest ISO possible until the shutter speed gets down to 1/60th" in the second. This sounds a lot like "custom auto ISO", except that you'd want a more convenient and comprehensible UI.
Again, I agree and I'd take that mode too.  Having updated the description of "custom auto ISO" for the manual and written the custom autoiso in kap_uav.lua, I think I under how it all works. But even I have to stare at it for a while to remember how it fits together.   Having "OverExposure Compensation" in the same menu makes it worse of course.

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In terms of making CHDK overrides adjust the unset parameters, if someone has a specific ISO set in the Canon menu and overrides the shutter, should CHDK mess with the ISO?
No, of course not.  In that case, for most of the Canon P&S's, they are essentially trying to operate the camera in "M" mode.

I don't think we fundamentally disagree on anything other than this "needing" to be fixed.  I can't think of a possible use case for setting one of Tv,Av,ND or Sv in the CHDK menus and letting the other three "float".  Can you? 

Meanwhile,  we don't offer  Tv, Av,Tv+Sv, or Sv priority modes. Or a good autoISO or usable ND filter management.  While I don't disagree that an easy to use UI would be nice,  that's not much of an excuse for not offering the modes at all.

Seems like we have games, and scripts for timing the cooking of eggs but not some of the standard stuff the more expensive cameras treat as normal.  (Ok, cheap shot about the games, but I think you get my point.)  And once you get started on the code, providing multiple shooting modes (M, Tv, Av, Tv+Av, autoISO, NDin/NDout) instead of just one is not a lot of extra work.




« Last Edit: 03 / July / 2014, 07:34:43 by waterwingz »
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Offline oid_maps

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Re: Av/Tv/P/Av+Tv/Sv ...-modes natively in CHDK.
« Reply #12 on: 03 / July / 2014, 09:44:53 »
Also, what would make the CHDK-nativ-TV... -modes better compared to script solutions:

* When I take a picture I like the camera to show it as long as I want until I take the next one. I also like to be able to zoom into this. To check focus for example. It's not possible with CHDKplus (it's possible to show it for some seconds, but not to zoom and not to show it until I want to take the next picture), but possible with enabled overrides in non-<ALT>-mode.
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Offline waterwingz

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Re: Av/Tv/P/Av+Tv/Sv ...-modes natively in CHDK.
« Reply #13 on: 03 / July / 2014, 10:13:34 »
Quote from: oid_maps on 03 / July / 2014, 09:44:53
Also, what would make the CHDK-nativ-TV... -modes better compared to script solutions:
* When I take a picture I like the camera to show it as long as I want until I take the next one. I also like to be able to zoom into this. To check focus for example. It's not possible with CHDKplus (it's possible to show it for some seconds, but not to zoom and not to show it until I want to take the next picture), but possible with enabled overrides in non-<ALT>-mode.
Actually,  I think I could expand CHDplus.lua to do this.
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Offline oid_maps

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Re: Av/Tv/P/Av+Tv/Sv ...-modes natively in CHDK.
« Reply #14 on: 03 / July / 2014, 10:33:01 »
Quote from: waterwingz on 03 / July / 2014, 10:13:34
Quote from: oid_maps on 03 / July / 2014, 09:44:53
Also, what would make the CHDK-nativ-TV... -modes better compared to script solutions:
* When I take a picture I like the camera to show it as long as I want until I take the next one. I also like to be able to zoom into this. To check focus for example. It's not possible with CHDKplus (it's possible to show it for some seconds, but not to zoom and not to show it until I want to take the next picture), but possible with enabled overrides in non-<ALT>-mode.
Actually,  I think I could expand CHDplus.lua to do this.

Isn't this a bit messy to re-implement functionality which in general is already there?
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My cameras:
* Canon PowerShot:
  - A570 IS (Firmware 1.00E)
  - A2000 IS (Firmware 1.00C)
* Other manufacturers:
  - Pentax K10D (Firmware 1.31)
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Offline waterwingz

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Re: Av/Tv/P/Av+Tv/Sv ...-modes natively in CHDK.
« Reply #15 on: 03 / July / 2014, 10:51:19 »
Quote from: oid_maps on 03 / July / 2014, 10:33:01
Isn't this a bit messy to re-implement functionality which in general is already there?
Well, it's not there when a script is running.  :P

I believe that part of this discussion comes down to the purpose of having scripts.  If you can do something with a script then you maintain flexibility as even the average user can customize a script somewhat without needing to rebuild CHDK from source. 

That's why there is no intervalometer or HDR or dark-frame or motion-detection capability in core CHDK.  All the hooks are there to do what you need in a script.  But the actual function is not.

Putting such functionality in core CHDK would mean you use them the way that the developer wanted them to work.  No doubt there are egotistical people who believe they know what people want and can hard code such things and make everyone happy.  But the tens (hundreds?) of different intervalometer scripts available suggests otherwise.

Update :  as has been suggested a couple of time now,  the issue here is really about the effort needed to load and run a script.  Not about script capability.  When you want to do something, rather than using a quick menu choice or button press,  you have to wade through a file browser that uses 8.3 file naming convention to try and find the right file to do what you want to do.  And then get back into <ALT> and press the shutter button.  You can make this a bit easier by putting your favorite script in the user menu (my summer project from a couple of years ago) but that's still a lot of setup work for the average newbie.   
« Last Edit: 03 / July / 2014, 11:10:38 by waterwingz »
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Offline Microfunguy

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Re: Av/Tv/P/Av+Tv/Sv ...-modes natively in CHDK.
« Reply #16 on: 03 / July / 2014, 14:14:58 »
Quote from: waterwingz on 03 / July / 2014, 10:51:19
No doubt there are egotistical people who believe they know what people want and can hard code such things and make everyone happy.

Cannot think of any of the hard-working CHDK developers that applies to.

Of course, the CHDK approach is not suitable for everyone :-

"The chdk forum is more like a computer science website - very interesting but also very frustrating [for me]."

http://www.agisoft.ru/forum/index.php?topic=1615.20;wap2

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Offline msl

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Re: Av/Tv/P/Av+Tv/Sv ...-modes natively in CHDK.
« Reply #17 on: 03 / July / 2014, 14:55:18 »
Quote from: Microfunguy on 03 / July / 2014, 14:14:58
Cannot think of any of the hard-working CHDK developers that applies to. Of course, the CHDK approach is not suitable for everyone :- "The chdk forum is more like a computer science website - very interesting but also very frustrating [for me]."

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Offline reyalp

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Re: Av/Tv/P/Av+Tv/Sv ...-modes natively in CHDK.
« Reply #18 on: 04 / July / 2014, 01:05:03 »
Quote from: waterwingz on 03 / July / 2014, 07:28:48
I agree.  But straight Tv mode is something "standard" that photographers understand and expect. Can you imagine the howl if the next G17 or Canon/Nikon DSLR was released without it?
DSLRs have variable apertures and wider useful ISO ranges, so Tv is a bit more useful there.
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I don't think we fundamentally disagree on anything other than this "needing" to be fixed.  I can't think of a possible use case for setting one of Tv,Av,ND or Sv in the CHDK menus and letting the other three "float".  Can you? 
Not really. There are probably some cases where people mix script and menu overrides (I know I've done this on occasion out of lazyness) There are also probably people who are used to the current behavior, i.e. they see what the camera would do, change the override and expect to get some exposure different from the cameras idea of "correct".

If we are going to try to make CHDK get the "correct" exposure when some of these are left unset,  I think we need to make it clear that is happening and clearly specify when it does what. If we don't, it will be just as confusing as the current behavior and not much more useful.

There are a number of other corner cases like the like the manual ISO example, for example if they have set canon EV compensation, or if the flash is enabled, or they are already in Tv or Av mode in the canon firmware.

I think having a shooting control mode like your chdkplus would be a good thing. The current CHDK UI is really not very good for control of day to day shooting. However, IMO this is a fairly large change that needs to be properly thought out. chdkplus is a nice way to prototype.

Whether the final UI ends up as a script or in the C doesn't really matter to me. I think having the basic controls be standard would be good, OTOH, having a special kind of script that can be your shooting UI could provide a lot more flexibility and one (or more) basic ones could be included in the standard distribution.
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Offline waterwingz

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Re: Av/Tv/P/Av+Tv/Sv ...-modes natively in CHDK.
« Reply #19 on: 04 / July / 2014, 09:48:48 »
Quote from: reyalp on 04 / July / 2014, 01:05:03
If we are going to try to make CHDK get the "correct" exposure when some of these are left unset,  I think we need to make it clear that is happening and clearly specify when it does what. If we don't, it will be just as confusing as the current behavior and not much more useful.
I'd suggest we just leave the existing stuff the way it is.  Backwards compatibility etc and as you point out, we don't have a different behavior that would be less confusing.

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I think having a shooting control mode like your chdkplus would be a good thing. The current CHDK UI is really not very good for control of day to day shooting. However, IMO this is a fairly large change that needs to be properly thought out. chdkplus is a nice way to prototype.
Baring some huge influx of new devs, the number of people who can work on this is pretty small.  Probably even smaller is the number interested enough to do so.  I'd submit that we don't have to get it perfect - just not let it be ugly.  Sounds like something that belongs in 1.4.0 for a long period of tuning and polishing.

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Whether the final UI ends up as a script or in the C doesn't really matter to me. I think having the basic controls be standard would be good, OTOH, having a special kind of script that can be your shooting UI could provide a lot more flexibility and one (or more) basic ones could be included in the standard distribution.
Obviously,  both would be best. 

The scope of adding basic controls built-in is a lot smaller so that might be a good place to start.   Seems like CHDK is about photography in the end and something this basic seems like a huge hole.

But having expanded scripting capability would also be nice.  Both from alternate ways scripts get launched  (than the three we have now) to coupling them into normal Canon modes as you suggest.  And if we are going that far,  your long standing idea about "customizable button mapping" probably plays here as well.

Did I mention this is probably 1.4.0 stuff?
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