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Maximum operating voltage of the G1x / M3 / M10

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Offline c_joerg

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Maximum operating voltage of the G1x / M3 / M10
« on: 14 / June / 2017, 02:36:09 »
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With longer time lapse recordings I had my G1x so far always with 6 AA NiMh batteries operated in a sixfold battery holder. This worked very well. However, the batteries for me now for the third time at security checks at the airport took off.

Which I seldom need this kind of power supply I now consider whether I can not use simple AA batteries. However, I come then in the worst case to a voltage of 6 * 1.6V = 9.6V.
I could also reduce the voltage with a diode by 0.7V.

I have not read anything about the maximum voltage of 7.4V cameras. From the S110, I know that there is still no problem with it with 5V.

Would the operation with 9.6V on the G1x be a risk?
How is it with the EOS M3 or M10. Can one say that if it works with the G1x also with the M3 / M10 is no problem?


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Offline lapser

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Re: Maximum operating voltage of the G1x / M3 / M10
« Reply #1 on: 28 / June / 2017, 09:09:48 »
Camera batteries are based on lithium ion cells, which have a voltage of 4.2 volts fully charged, and 3.1 volts safely discharged. You can discharge them further, but they tend to catch fire and blow up.

When you draw current from a li-ion cell, its voltage quickly drops from 4.2 to around 3.7, and holds near there. Then it quickly drops to 3.1. They need a cutoff circuit to keep from dropping further, so you never run a li-ion battery unprotected.

Two li-ion cells in series produces 8.4 volts charged, and 6.2 volts fully discharged, and 7.4 volts nominal. I've tried running the G1X with 9 volts, and sometimes it starts, and sometimes not. I've run the D20 (4.2 volts charged) at 5 volts from a USB battery. That works most of the time, but sometimes it won't start if the USB battery is fully charged.

So the answer to your question is that the G1X might work at 9 volts, but sometimes it doesn't. It doesn't hurt the camera, since it has an over voltage shutoff.

I use an 8.4 volt battery pack designed for bicycle lights. It has rubber straps to attach it to handlebars that attach nicely to tripod legs. It's also very inexpensive!
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00PE6TVCI/

One thing I've discovered about continuous mode is that if the power is suddenly cut off, it loses all the photos in the folder it's writing, up to 2,000 pictures. So I have a test in my script that stops it at 6300mv battery voltage.

I'm not sure the big lithium battery will make it onto an airplane. I've also used a DC to DC converter that changes 12 volts to several different voltages, including 7.4. You can plug it into a lighter plug on a car, or any 12 volt battery.
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B000KGKFA4/

These links might be useful for wiring everything up:

Use these connectors! The others I bought had very thin wire that broke.

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B01IBFNJ3A/

Good for adapting the DC converter male plug output to female.
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00J6DM9DI/
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Offline c_joerg

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Re: Maximum operating voltage of the G1x / M3 / M10
« Reply #2 on: 28 / June / 2017, 10:10:49 »
Thanks for the detailed explanation…

Quote from: lapser on 28 / June / 2017, 09:09:48
When you draw current from a li-ion cell, its voltage quickly drops from 4.2 to around 3.7, and holds near there. Then it quickly drops to 3.1.

Attached a discharge curve from a NB5L and NB10L battery, measured in S110 and G1x.

Quote from: lapser on 28 / June / 2017, 09:09:48
They need a cutoff circuit to keep from dropping further, so you never run a li-ion battery unprotected.

Most of 18650 lithium-ion cells have a build in protection…

Quote from: lapser on 28 / June / 2017, 09:09:48
So the answer to your question is that the G1X might work at 9 volts, but sometimes it doesn't. It doesn't hurt the camera, since it has an over voltage shutoff. .

So I will trust you ;) . Have you tried it with M3?


Quote from: lapser on 28 / June / 2017, 09:09:48
One thing I've discovered about continuous mode is that if the power is suddenly cut off, it loses all the photos in the folder it's writing, up to 2,000 pictures.

Good to know. Rawopint has a shutdown on low batterie which I set always to ‘true’.


Quote from: lapser on 28 / June / 2017, 09:09:48
I'm not sure the big lithium battery will make it onto an airplane.

That’s the think. I have already had a lot of batteries leave at the airport. My kids with their big power banks never have problems. Therefore, I would prefer a power supply with power banks and step up converters
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Offline reyalp

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Re: Maximum operating voltage of the G1x / M3 / M10
« Reply #3 on: 28 / June / 2017, 16:08:00 »
Quote from: c_joerg on 28 / June / 2017, 10:10:49
Good to know. Rawopint has a shutdown on low batterie which I set always to ‘true’.
Note the value used for this is the low voltage setting CHDK battery settings. The default for this is set in the port and may not be exactly right. If it's high, rawopint will shut down when you have battery left, and if it low, the camera could shut down before it's hit. If you want to fine tune it, you can observe the voltage the camera does it's own shut down (the "charge the battery" message), and set the CHDK value a little above that.
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Offline lapser

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Re: Maximum operating voltage of the G1x / M3 / M10
« Reply #4 on: 28 / June / 2017, 17:04:45 »
Actually, when the camera shuts down because of low internal battery voltage, it first closes all the files it's writing, including the photos and log file. You don't lose anything, except what you would normally add at the end of the log.

With an external battery, the camera just turns off like you unplugged the power. In continuous mode, you lose all the pictures in the current directory (up to 2000) and the log file written since the camera changed directories.

So I only monitor battery voltages when using an external power source in my script. I set the low voltage limit at 6300 mv for the G1X and SX50.
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I haven't tried running the M3 on 9 volts. It's apparently near the upper voltage limit on the G1X, because sometimes the camera won't start at that voltage. I don't recommend running either camera on 9 volts.


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Offline c_joerg

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Re: Maximum operating voltage of the G1x / M3 / M10
« Reply #5 on: 29 / June / 2017, 02:25:57 »
Quote from: reyalp on 28 / June / 2017, 16:08:00
Note the value used for this is the low voltage setting CHDK battery settings. The default for this is set in the port and may not be exactly right. If it's high, rawopint will shut down when you have battery left, and if it low, the camera could shut down before it's hit. If you want to fine tune it, you can observe the voltage the camera does it's own shut down (the "charge the battery" message), and set the CHDK value a little above that.

I have a script, which I run in playback mode, which logs the voltage every 30s. The script runs until the camera shutdown. I see the "charge the battery" message before the camera shutdown. I made around 10 runs and I see values between 6412mV and 6441mV. This is how I made the plots above. Can this value be different in record mode?

I found one ‘lowbat’ with G1x in my log files. The last entry was 6441mV. Locks like that is the same value as Canon shut down the camera. For a save shut down, the value in rawopint should be a little bit higher or?

Can the value, where Canon shut down the camera changed by CHDK?

Quote from: lapser on 28 / June / 2017, 17:04:45
I set the low voltage limit at 6300 mv for the G1X and SX50.
I’m wondering why you can work until 6300 mV. Is this firmware dependent?
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Offline lapser

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Re: Maximum operating voltage of the G1x / M3 / M10
« Reply #6 on: 29 / June / 2017, 09:56:06 »
Quote from: c_joerg on 29 / June / 2017, 02:25:57
I have a script, which I run in playback mode, which logs the voltage every 30s. The script runs until the camera shutdown. I see the "charge the battery" message before the camera shutdown. I made around 10 runs and I see values between 6412mV and 6441mV. This is how I made the plots above. Can this value be different in record mode?

I found one ‘lowbat’ with G1x in my log files. The last entry was 6441mV. Locks like that is the same value as Canon shut down the camera. For a save shut down, the value in rawopint should be a little bit higher or?

Can the value, where Canon shut down the camera changed by CHDK?

Quote from: lapser on 28 / June / 2017, 17:04:45
I set the low voltage limit at 6300 mv for the G1X and SX50.
I’m wondering why you can work until 6300 mV. Is this firmware dependent?
I'm not sure changing the shut down voltage would be safe. I assume that Canon camera batteries have over-discharge protection, but I would't count on it for all batteries. It doesn't sound that useful either.

The low voltage limit of 6300 I use is only for external batteries. I discovered I don't get very many more shots with a lower limit, plus when you run a lithium ion battery down too far, I heard it shortens the lifespan.

I suppose if you really want to write the end of the log data before internal battery shutdown, you'd want to set the script end voltage higher than the camera shutdown voltage. I may need to do that for internal batteries with my new script because I write the entire log file at the end.

I log the battery voltage with every shot of a time lapse. On the D20, the voltage before camera shut down was 3.328. Interestingly, the camera also reported the ISO of the last shot as 5 (instead of 800).

That corresponds to a voltage of 6.656 on the G1X. I'll test it with an internal battery on the G1X when I get the chance.

This is the D20 time lapse where the script ended with a low battery shutdown:
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Offline c_joerg

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Re: Maximum operating voltage of the G1x / M3 / M10
« Reply #7 on: 29 / June / 2017, 10:24:34 »
Quote from: lapser on 29 / June / 2017, 09:56:06
The low voltage limit of 6300 I use is only for external batteries

I don’t understand this. Does the camera have different low voltage limit for internal or external batteries?
Independent, if I use the internal battery or the 6 AA NiMh batteries operated in a sixfold holder, my camera always shut down at 6440mV. So I never had a chance to go to 6300mV on external batteries.


Quote from: lapser on 29 / June / 2017, 09:56:06
On the D20, the voltage before camera shut down was 3.328. Interestingly, the camera also reported the ISO of the last shot as 5 (instead of 800)

On my S110 it’s around 3210mV, nearly half of G1x.

Quote from: lapser on 29 / June / 2017, 09:56:06
I write the entire log file at the end.

What is the advantage of this? In a crash, all data could be lost.
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Offline lapser

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Re: Maximum operating voltage of the G1x / M3 / M10
« Reply #8 on: 29 / June / 2017, 12:13:26 »
Quote from: c_joerg on 29 / June / 2017, 10:24:34
Quote from: lapser on 29 / June / 2017, 09:56:06
The low voltage limit of 6300 I use is only for external batteries
I don’t understand this. Does the camera have different low voltage limit for internal or external batteries?
Independent, if I use the internal battery or the 6 AA NiMh batteries operated in a sixfold holder, my camera always shut down at 6440mV. So I never had a chance to go to 6300mV on external batteries.
My G1X doesn't shut down or display "low battery" when the external battery gets low. It just crashes like you unplugged the power cable. I'm not using a Canon dummy battery. Does your G1X do a controlled shut down when the external battery is depleted? Are you using a Canon dummy battery?
Quote from: c_joerg on 29 / June / 2017, 10:24:34
Quote from: lapser on 29 / June / 2017, 09:56:06
I write the entire log file at the end.
What is the advantage of this? In a crash, all data could be lost.
It's a timing problem at short intervals. Writing a log file while the camera is saving raw files sometimes blocks the script for several seconds. That increases the minimum interval, which is important for what I want to do (i.e. get as many shots as possible in under 2 minutes during the eclipse).

What's the fastest shot rate you've done with rawopint on the G1X saving raw files? I usually use 1500 msec intervals.
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Offline reyalp

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Re: Maximum operating voltage of the G1x / M3 / M10
« Reply #9 on: 29 / June / 2017, 16:45:26 »
Quote from: lapser on 29 / June / 2017, 12:13:26
It's a timing problem at short intervals. Writing a log file while the camera is saving raw files sometimes blocks the script for several seconds. That increases the minimum interval, which is important for what I want to do (i.e. get as many shots as possible in under 2 minutes during the eclipse).
FWIW,  I did not see this behavior with rawopint using in runs totaling hundreds of thousands of frames on several camera models. rawopint writes a line every frame, but does not flush (or close/reopen) every line, meaning that some lines are likely to be lost in a crash. In my experience, it is able to maintain a shooting rate very close to what you would get just holding the button down in continuous mode, excluding the actual metering overhead. E.g. D10, which advertises a 0.9 FPS continuous rate is able to maintain a 1200ms interval for thousands of shots.

This kind of behavior may be camera/sd card/script logging strategy dependent. IIRC waterwingz did see something similar to what you describe with one of his scripts.

In the case of rawopint, the log is verbose enough that keeping the whole thing in RAM for long runs would not be viable.
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