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Asking Canon to release their source code

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Offline RaduP

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Re: Asking Canon to release their source code
« Reply #10 on: 17 / May / 2008, 14:02:14 »
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Yes, that's the idea.
Right now, there are maybe 9 companies involved in making P&S cameras: Fuji, Olympus, Canon, Sony, Nikon, Panasonic, Casio, Samsung, Kodak.
None of them, AFAIK, allows (officially) for custom software to run on their camera.
So far, the only cameras where you can do that (unofficially) is Canon.

The reason why I got my a570 camera is so that I can run custom software and for having a small camera with me when I don't feel like taking my DSLR. If not for CHDK, I would have probably bought something else, possibly a Panasonic camera.

So in the end, every little thing counts in such a competitive market. If Canon doesn't release a SDK, maybe some other company will, and then everyone will focus their effort in developing software for that camera.
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Offline BB

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Re: Asking Canon to release their source code
« Reply #11 on: 17 / May / 2008, 14:24:01 »
If the other thread about the A590--it sounds like Canon may be actively trying to prevent further porting of CHDK to their new cameras.

A590

Kind of counter to the intent of this thread.

-Bill
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Offline Psychokitty

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Re: Asking Canon to release their source code
« Reply #12 on: 19 / May / 2008, 07:42:38 »
Quote from: RaduP on 14 / May / 2008, 21:11:56
Quote from: acseven on 14 / May / 2008, 18:08:00
I don't think this to be a wise move.
Can you please explain why you think so?

...Of course, the most likely answer from Canon would be a no (or no answer at all), but what can people lose by trying?
Well, it seems pretty obvious to me. Canon, as far as I know, has not asked the fine folks here at CHDK forums to stop their development. Perhaps it's only because CHDK is not a business entity, and so it would become close to impossible to litigate against them, I don't know.
What I do know is that if someone representing CHDK did ask Canon for an official release of software, they would have an electronically written document of intent by the requester, as well as an electronically written record of notification of denial by Canon to the representative of CHDK.
As CHDK developers continues to decode Canon's encrypted softwares, they may well encounter friction in the form of the threat of litigation.
It is for this reason that I earlier suggested that the developers of CHDK should have their own section of this forum where others could read but not post. I also think that putting the title "developer" beside a members user ID is a poor idea.

If you think the folks at Canon Corporation are ignorant of CHDK and it's developments, I'm quite certain you are mistaken. Furthermore, to my knowledge, Canon is the only camera manufacturer to have their code cracked wide open and exploited to it's full potential, thus negating reason to purchase many of their "intermediate" models. Perhaps when the "Canon digital camera" becomes synonymous with "hackable" to a large enough percentage of Canon's consumers, we'll see Canon do more than just change their code encryption/OS.

In my opinion it's merely a matter of time before Canon becomes frustrated enough to actually attempt action against CHDK. Even if they can't take legal action against a phantom entity, they certainly have the resources to take action against individuals. Corporate entities know that they hardly ever have to "win" a litigation against an individual, because the battle itself would more than likely deplete any of our life savings.

Maybe nothing at all will happen. But let's not poke the lion who's bounty we've been helping ourselves to. ;)
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Offline RaduP

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Re: Asking Canon to release their source code
« Reply #13 on: 19 / May / 2008, 17:55:30 »
I don't think that Canon will ever try to mess with CHDK for the following reasons:
1. CHDK breaks no law (not even DMCA)
2. That will be a lot of bad publicity for them. I for one would not hesitate to boycott them if they do such a stupid thing.
3. They indirectly benefit from it. More sold P&S cameras.
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Offline PhyrePhoX

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Re: Asking Canon to release their source code
« Reply #14 on: 19 / May / 2008, 18:04:53 »
one thing for sure: i cant even get my hands on one of the official canon SDKs (for remote controlling my P&S cams), how the hell will i be allowed getting the sourcecode? if ever, the code would only be released in exchange for a written NDA i suppose. same thing with the sdks, i guess this is the reason you cannot download them anywhere on the web.
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Offline fbonomi

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Re: Asking Canon to release their source code
« Reply #15 on: 19 / May / 2008, 18:11:31 »
Quote from: RaduP on 19 / May / 2008, 17:55:30
1. CHDK breaks no law (not even DMCA)
What about all the links to firmware dumps we have around?

Quote from: RaduP on 19 / May / 2008, 17:55:30
2. That will be a lot of bad publicity for them. I for one would not hesitate to boycott them if they do such a stupid thing.
Mhh.. imagine the newspapers: "Canon shuts down a gang of russian hackers that were copying their firmware" ... Do you see many people boycotting Canon for that ? :-)

Quote from: RaduP on 19 / May / 2008, 17:55:30
3. They indirectly benefit from it. More sold P&S cameras.
I have a Sony, and I bought an A570 just to run CHDK on it, but .... how many people will stop buying higher-end cameras if CHDK gives them so many features to play with?
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Offline DataGhost

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Re: Asking Canon to release their source code
« Reply #16 on: 19 / May / 2008, 18:20:29 »
I think Canon just 'ignores' us because we might be valuable. They let us have the fun and they might get new ideas from CHDK :) Example: iPodLinux developers coded something which allowed movies to be played on iPods, albeit black/white (or color but only one model had that at that time). Several months later, Apple announced that new iPods would ship with a video playback function.

And to reply to point 2 and 3: CHDK really isn't that big. Sure, there are "a lot" of references but it's still fairly unknown, especially for the "normal customer". "Normal customers" don't care about RAW, shutter overrides and whatever, they just buy a camera and are quite satisfied with the images it produces, even if they're marginally better than a crappy phone cam. So basically, there aren't a lot of CHDK users to boycot Canon in a way that they'll notice it and consequently, there won't be a lot of people buying Canon cameras specifically for CHDK.

Quote from: fbonomi on 19 / May / 2008, 18:11:31
I have a Sony, and I bought an A570 just to run CHDK on it, but .... how many people will stop buying higher-end cameras if CHDK gives them so many features to play with?
There are some things CHDK cannot fix. I still want a DSLR, mainly because of the performance in low-light conditions without the possibility to use flash. I really doubt people would buy a compact instead of DSLR just because CHDK runs on it. Even then, people are working on firmware for DSLRs and I'll actively join them the moment I get mine... :)
« Last Edit: 19 / May / 2008, 18:23:26 by DataGhost »
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Offline RaduP

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Re: Asking Canon to release their source code
« Reply #17 on: 19 / May / 2008, 19:04:34 »
Quote from: fbonomi on 19 / May / 2008, 18:11:31
What about all the links to firmware dumps we have around?
Fair use :D Some reverse engineering is allowed for compatibility issues.

Quote
Mhh.. imagine the newspapers: "Canon shuts down a gang of russian hackers that were copying their firmware" ... Do you see many people boycotting Canon for that ? :-)
No, of course.
On the other hand, I am sure it will make it to sites such as Digg.com (millions of readers), where people are much more educated.

Quote
I have a Sony, and I bought an A570 just to run CHDK on it, but .... how many people will stop buying higher-end cameras if CHDK gives them so many features to play with?
I have a DSLR, but bought the A570 because of CHDK.
Of course, I still use my DSLR more, but it's fun to play with a camera that you can program to some extent. CHDK is a realtively new project, but people talk about it, and many new people find out about it every day.

« Last Edit: 19 / May / 2008, 19:07:25 by RaduP »
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Offline RaduP

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Re: Asking Canon to release their source code
« Reply #18 on: 19 / May / 2008, 19:06:35 »
Quote from: PhyrePhoX on 19 / May / 2008, 18:04:53
one thing for sure: i cant even get my hands on one of the official canon SDKs (for remote controlling my P&S cams), how the hell will i be allowed getting the sourcecode? if ever, the code would only be released in exchange for a written NDA i suppose. same thing with the sdks, i guess this is the reason you cannot download them anywhere on the web.

Well, you are an individual, so a big company like Canon won't even read your message. But if they get a petition from a lot of their customers or potential customers, they might at least read it.
As with any company that is in business after many decades, they care about their customers to some extent, and IMO, having such a petition can't hurt.
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Offline Psychokitty

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Re: Asking Canon to release their source code
« Reply #19 on: 19 / May / 2008, 21:10:56 »
Sigh...
So you think you should start up a petition to make sure Canon knows about CHDK (-in case they don't already), and ask them to release their source code, with a soft, gentle threat of boycotting their products if they refuse?

You have several people who have responded to this, who apparently do know a bit more than you do, saying that this is a bad idea.
Please compare the realistic percentage of success in the gains you seek by doing this to the more probable odds of damage you could cause in the long run.

It's really quite simple; Canon's not giving you or anyone else the code for anything, no matter what.
Canon most likely currently thinks of the CHDK "community" as inconsequential. If you toss a big petition at them to demonstrate that it's not, then they are not going to regard us as quite so "inconsequential" anymore, and RaduP that's not a good thing, that's a bad thing.
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