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Canon S3IS Force HD

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Offline Mlapse

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Re: Canon S3IS Force HD
« Reply #10 on: 23 / June / 2022, 04:02:27 »
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Blenderbach, After looking back at your former question, i think it is time you start educating yourself about the limitations of our physical world and what that means for the mechanics of a camera

https://chdk.setepontos.com/index.php?PHPSESSID=eb73ba5ac98bce5d36e7b505c4b016df&topic=14496.0

So let us know when you are finished with your research and have a question that will at least fall within the possibilities of our reality.


Or do you want to be the comic relief of this site? in that case, you are on the right track.
Because i can almost see the next one coming with 'force 100x zoom'
And if you like Mondriaan we can, we just don't have the enhancing software they have in Hollywood ;)

too bad though, i would have loved to see your video with a cam surrounded with that dropping cooling mist you see on some extreme oc video's :)


« Last Edit: 23 / June / 2022, 06:57:22 by Mlapse »
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Offline blenderbach

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Re: Canon S3IS Force HD
« Reply #11 on: 23 / June / 2022, 10:44:31 »
Quote from: Mlapse on 23 / June / 2022, 04:02:27
Blenderbach, After looking back at your former question, i think it is time you start educating yourself about the limitations of our physical world and what that means for the mechanics of a camera

https://chdk.setepontos.com/index.php?PHPSESSID=eb73ba5ac98bce5d36e7b505c4b016df&topic=14496.0

So let us know when you are finished with your research and have a question that will at least fall within the possibilities of our reality.


Or do you want to be the comic relief of this site? in that case, you are on the right track.
Because i can almost see the next one coming with 'force 100x zoom'
And if you like Mondriaan we can, we just don't have the enhancing software they have in Hollywood ;)

too bad though, i would have loved to see your video with a cam surrounded with that dropping cooling mist you see on some extreme oc video's :)

This isn't about the physical world. I know that these cameras have limitations, like not enough RAM or processing power. What I've realized is that the camera can take photos, which are 6MP. Using the burst option, I can get it to take about 1 image per second. 6MP is much larger than 1080p. So, I thought that maybe, it could be possible to possibly get 2-5 seconds barely of video footage in 1080p, since it can already capture images that are much larger at 1fps...
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Offline Mlapse

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Re: Canon S3IS Force HD
« Reply #12 on: 23 / June / 2022, 11:22:19 »
Quote from: blenderbach on 23 / June / 2022, 10:44:31
What I've realized is that the camera can take photos
it's a baby step, but at least it's spot on  :D

much larger is a bit vague, can you show me the math you did with the data you just provided? what was your calculated frame rate at 1080P?

in the virtual world everything is possible, so you are good there :)

i'll stop now because i think my comments won't be helpfull from this point on. :blink:
« Last Edit: 23 / June / 2022, 12:14:05 by Mlapse »
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Offline blenderbach

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Re: Canon S3IS Force HD
« Reply #13 on: 23 / June / 2022, 12:29:04 »
Quote from: Mlapse on 23 / June / 2022, 11:22:19
Quote from: blenderbach on 23 / June / 2022, 10:44:31
What I've realized is that the camera can take photos
it's a baby step, but at least it's spot on  :D

much larger is a bit vague, can you show me the math you did with the data you just provided? what was your calculated frame rate at 1080P?

in the virtual world everything is possible, so you are good there :)

i'll stop now because i think my comments won't be helpfull from this point on. :blink:

Let's see, if it can take images at 6MP at 1FPS, let's calculate the "supposed" frame rate of 1080p. So, 1080p is about 2.1MP, however, let's make it 2MP for easier calculation. This is going to be a very crude calculation. If 6MP is 1FPS, then 3MP is 2FPS. So 1080p video should be around 2.3FPS...  However, we must remember something. The 1FPS is caused by the fact that the images are taken with a mechanical shutter, which slows everything down, and each image must be encoded separately. Video, however, is being captured with an electronic shutter, which is super fast, so, now I will do a crude estimate. 1080p, could be captured, perhaps at 10-15FPS. It's not the best frame rate, but it isn't that bad. In fact, we could just go with 720p which is just the beginning of HD, but it closer to the 480p the camera gives automatically. Maybe with that, we can get, perhaps, about 20-24FPS. I'm not exactly sure.

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Offline Mlapse

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Re: Canon S3IS Force HD
« Reply #14 on: 23 / June / 2022, 12:48:32 »
Quote from: blenderbach on 23 / June / 2022, 12:29:04
let's calculate the "supposed" frame rate of 1080p. So, 1080p is about 2.1MP, however, let's make it 2MP for easier calculation.
i can live with that
Quote
This is going to be a very crude calculation. If 6MP is 1FPS, then 3MP is 2FPS. So 1080p video should be around 2.3FPS...
but apparently you can't, you just stated that you would use 2mp..in my world 6/2=3fps
Quote
However, we must remember something. The 1FPS is caused by the fact that the images are taken with a mechanical shutter, which slows everything down, and each image must be encoded separately. Video, however, is being captured with an electronic shutter, which is super fast, so, now I will do a crude estimate. 1080p, could be captured, perhaps at 10-15FPS.
what is your basis of thinking that a shutter that can do 1/1000 of a second or less will impact your frame rate by a factor 5 ? what test have you done?
that is not an estimate, it is an unfounded optimistic guess that has no basis in the data you provided. are you working in marketing or running for president? :)

I'm willing to go along with faster capture speed since color and format are lower with video capture and it's a continues readout, but i think twice as fast is already stretching it and the bottleneck is still that processor that only processes one 6MP frame a second....it's not the mechanical shutter that takes one second.
after all it's not like your picture is taken by the lumiere brothers with a hand moved shutter.
« Last Edit: 23 / June / 2022, 13:01:53 by Mlapse »
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Offline blenderbach

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Re: Canon S3IS Force HD
« Reply #15 on: 23 / June / 2022, 12:58:34 »
Quote from: Mlapse on 23 / June / 2022, 12:48:32
Quote from: blenderbach on 23 / June / 2022, 12:29:04
let's calculate the "supposed" frame rate of 1080p. So, 1080p is about 2.1MP, however, let's make it 2MP for easier calculation.
i can live with that
Quote
This is going to be a very crude calculation. If 6MP is 1FPS, then 3MP is 2FPS. So 1080p video should be around 2.3FPS...
but apparently you can't, you just stated that you would use 2mp..in my world 6/2=3fps
Quote
However, we must remember something. The 1FPS is caused by the fact that the images are taken with a mechanical shutter, which slows everything down, and each image must be encoded separately. Video, however, is being captured with an electronic shutter, which is super fast, so, now I will do a crude estimate. 1080p, could be captured, perhaps at 10-15FPS.
what is your basis of thinking that a shutter that can do 1/1000 of a second or less will impact your frame rate by a factor 5 ? what test have you done?

I'm willing to go along with faster capture speed since color and format are lower with video capture and it's a continues readout, but i think twice as fast is already stretching it and the bottleneck is still that processor that only makes one 6MP frame a second.

To be honest. I'm not sure what the camera is capable of... But I bet that there might be some juice in it to maybe achieve a better resolution... The only issue, is that, I'm not a very good programmer, and CHDK doesn't have any tutorials or very good documentation so I don't think I can help...
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Offline Mlapse

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Re: Canon S3IS Force HD
« Reply #16 on: 23 / June / 2022, 13:15:28 »
i do admit documentation is a bit fragmented and not ideal in finding all you need when you start. however a few posts back were some links providing some of it, why don't you start there?
if you don't try you'll never be able to prove us wrong with that hd capable S3IS that you programmed.
I'm willing to take up that bet....so it's your time to study ;)
« Last Edit: 23 / June / 2022, 13:36:53 by Mlapse »
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Offline reyalp

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Re: Canon S3IS Force HD
« Reply #17 on: 23 / June / 2022, 21:39:58 »
Quote from: blenderbach on 23 / June / 2022, 12:29:04
The 1FPS is caused by the fact that the images are taken with a mechanical shutter, which slows everything down, and each image must be encoded separately.
I'm not aware of any evidence the mechanical shutter is the limiting factor here. Obviously running it at video frame rate would be bad from a component life POV, but the actual mechanism can move very fast.

IMO, the main contributors are reading out the sensor to camera RAM, encoding jpeg or video, and writing to SD.

Superficially, you'd expect going from 8 MP to 2 MP to make each of these steps take 1/4 the time, since they are all essentially bandwidth limited. So naively 4 FPS should be possible. We can sanity check this by noting 640x480 video is ~0.3MP, which by the same calculation would be ~27 FPS, which is close enough to the actual video spec of 640x480 @ 30.

The actual S3 continuous shoot spec is better (2.3 FPS in "high speed continuous"), so there might even be some headroom... However, there's no guarantee you can actually program the hardware to do readout or encoding at arbitrary resolutions, and if it is possible, significant reverse engineering and new development would be required to do it.

Quote
But I bet that there might be some juice in it to maybe achieve a better resolution... The only issue, is that, I'm not a very good programmer,
So here's the thing. You're arguing with people who are good programmers or at least have well over a decade of experience with these cameras firmware, apparently based on no more than gut feeling.

We're telling you based on our experience that it's unlikely to be possible, and that just figuring out exactly what is possible would be a lot of work. You could be right, but the only way you are likely to convince us is to do the work.

Quote
and CHDK doesn't have any tutorials or very good documentation so I don't think I can help...
The primary thing required is reverse engineering, which by definition involves figuring out things that you don't have good documentation for ;)
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Offline blenderbach

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Re: Canon S3IS Force HD
« Reply #18 on: 23 / June / 2022, 22:25:49 »
Quote from: reyalp on 23 / June / 2022, 21:39:58
Quote from: blenderbach on 23 / June / 2022, 12:29:04
The 1FPS is caused by the fact that the images are taken with a mechanical shutter, which slows everything down, and each image must be encoded separately.
I'm not aware of any evidence the mechanical shutter is the limiting factor here. Obviously running it at video frame rate would be bad from a component life POV, but the actual mechanism can move very fast.

IMO, the main contributors are reading out the sensor to camera RAM, encoding jpeg or video, and writing to SD.

Superficially, you'd expect going from 8 MP to 2 MP to make each of these steps take 1/4 the time, since they are all essentially bandwidth limited. So naively 4 FPS should be possible. We can sanity check this by noting 640x480 video is ~0.3MP, which by the same calculation would be ~27 FPS, which is close enough to the actual video spec of 640x480 @ 30.

The actual S3 continuous shoot spec is better (2.3 FPS in "high speed continuous"), so there might even be some headroom... However, there's no guarantee you can actually program the hardware to do readout or encoding at arbitrary resolutions, and if it is possible, significant reverse engineering and new development would be required to do it.

Quote
But I bet that there might be some juice in it to maybe achieve a better resolution... The only issue, is that, I'm not a very good programmer,
So here's the thing. You're arguing with people who are good programmers or at least have well over a decade of experience with these cameras firmware, apparently based on no more than gut feeling.

We're telling you based on our experience that it's unlikely to be possible, and that just figuring out exactly what is possible would be a lot of work. You could be right, but the only way you are likely to convince us is to do the work.

Quote
and CHDK doesn't have any tutorials or very good documentation so I don't think I can help...
The primary thing required is reverse engineering, which by definition involves figuring out things that you don't have good documentation for ;)

Unfortunately, I can only reverse engineer things like audio, video, photos, text, and some other things. Code data is something I cannot, sadly. Thus, I will wait for more years until someone comes up with the scripts to do so. If the Canon S3IS can be forced to film in 1080p, the capabilities would be awesome, since CCD Sensors allow really crisp and solid imagery since they use a global shutter. Unfortunately, this is impossible at this time... I guess we'll wait another 12-17 years. If by then nothing changes, maybe if I start my Patreon by then, I'll hire a bunch of programmers to do it... :)
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Offline Mlapse

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Re: Canon S3IS Force HD
« Reply #19 on: 24 / June / 2022, 02:37:57 »
Quote from: blenderbach on 23 / June / 2022, 22:25:49
Thus, I will wait for more years until someone comes up with the scripts to do so. If the Canon S3IS can be forced to film in 1080p, the capabilities would be awesome, since CCD Sensors allow really crisp and solid imagery since they use a global shutter. Unfortunately, this is impossible at this time... I guess we'll wait another 12-17 years. If by then nothing changes, maybe if I start my Patreon by then, I'll hire a bunch of programmers to do it...[/b][/i] :)

again back in that virtual world of yours are you?  :blink: luckely for you time, knowledge, physical world or progress seems to have no meaning there  :lol

BTW the new G7xIII can do 30fps in continues shooting mode at 20MP resolution, now that's impressive....at least from an S3IS point of view ;)
in 12-17 years i'm sure you can pick one up cheap.
« Last Edit: 24 / June / 2022, 03:08:13 by Mlapse »
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