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Help! 1.6.x, stuck on STICK. Canon SX210-IS 1.00c oldie but goodie.

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Offline Mlapse

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Re: Help! 1.6.x, stuck on STICK. Canon SX210-IS 1.00c oldie but goodie.
« Reply #10 on: 04 / September / 2023, 13:04:36 »
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Quote from: BearOfNH on 04 / September / 2023, 12:24:39
Take a look at Windows' interpretation of what the 11-year-old camera produced, when asked to format the card: (comments to come in the next post)

this happens, it's not windows, you did a quick format in cam. and after formatting that large second partition to fat32 only a low level format (the one that takes an hour or so on a 256gb card) will actually get your sd card working properly again with all memory blocks included.

i guess you created a dual partition in cam for that 256gb card or did you use another method? you can just repeat that and you'll be back on track.
« Last Edit: 04 / September / 2023, 13:06:51 by Mlapse »
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Offline BearOfNH

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Re: Help! 1.6.x, stuck on STICK. Canon SX210-IS 1.00c oldie but goodie.
« Reply #11 on: 04 / September / 2023, 15:57:49 »
Quote from: Mlapse on 04 / September / 2023, 13:04:36
Quote from: BearOfNH on 04 / September / 2023, 12:24:39

Take a look at Windows' interpretation of what the 11-year-old camera produced, when asked to format the card: (comments to come in the next post)


this happens, it's not windows, you did a quick format in cam. and after formatting that large second partition to fat32 only a low level format (the one that takes an hour or so on a 256gb card) will actually get your sd card working properly again with all memory blocks included.

i guess you created a dual partition in cam for that 256gb card or did you use another method? you can just repeat that and you'll be back on track.



Let me clarify things a bit. Take another look at that 256GB card's picture. It showed the big partition formatted as exFAT, not FAT32. You're saying "this happens"? I find it more than passing strange that my 11-year-old camera knows how to format a partition as exFAT. It wasn’t until August 2019 that Microsoft published the exFAT specification, although it had been around since as early as 2006. (All this according to MS Bing/ChatGPT.) Not that CHDK is supposed to work with exFAT of course...

exFAT aside, I used guiformat to reformat the exFAT partition to FAT32, and ran Chimp, which complained "no camera software detected". OK, I unpacked the 1.6.x zip onto the card, maintaining the directory structure, and ran Chimp AGAIN. This time it didn't complain about missing camera software and did, well, something. When Chimp got done doing whatever it was doing it said "Installation Aborted" for reasons that elude me. I certainly didn't hit any "Cancel" buttons or otherwise try to interrupt Chimp...I patiently waited for it to finish.

I ejected the card, threw the WP switch, inserted it (the SD card) into my sx210, and powered on. Canon started up and complained about the WP switch. I hit <ALT> and up came a CHDK menu. Yay!

I fumbled around for a bit and discovered my fingers had difficulty pushing the buttons correctly. I have big fingers but the Canon has small buttons. In order not to annoy my wife I turned off camera sounds so there's no feedback when buttons are pressed. And I find myself pressing a lot of buttons. Several other problems have cropped up:
  • I got the message "failed to load lua.flt". It wasn't as annoying as that large "MISSING MODULE" message I got previously, but it may indicate something wrong with a build. Not sure what version of CHDK I'm using though...1.6 or 1.7 most likely.
  • I did manage to go thru the menus and set things up as I think I want them set up. RAW enabled (but no file type .RAW? Who on earth would make that decision?)
  • It wasn't obvious how to actually snap a picture. During my futzing with CHDK the lens was closed and retracted. It wasn't possible to take a picture and see if my setup was actually working the way I had envisioned.
  • Somewhere along the line Windows stopped recognizing SD cards when inserted into the card reader slot. Fortunately I have a USB adapter that I plug the SD card into, then plug the contraption into a USB slot. That works fine. I tried a Windows reboot but that didn't help to recognize cards in the SD reader slot. This of course is not CHDK's fault but I bring it up in case it is a more common problem. (I have a 17" HP Envy laptop that is otherwise suitable for me).
  • If I leave CHDK and go back to Canon (but not restarting the camera!) I get a message about the card WP switch. So, if I'm running CHDK I can't use the standard camera features?
All in all, both frustration and progress.
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Offline reyalp

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Re: Help! 1.6.x, stuck on STICK. Canon SX210-IS 1.00c oldie but goodie.
« Reply #12 on: 04 / September / 2023, 17:52:38 »
Quote from: Mlapse on 04 / September / 2023, 13:04:36
this happens, it's not windows, you did a quick format in cam. and after formatting that large second partition to fat32 only a low level format (the one that takes an hour or so on a 256gb card) will actually get your sd card working properly again with all memory blocks included.
FWIW, while it's possible some combination of card and software quirks that require a low level format, I do not believe this is true as a general rule.

Quote from: BearOfNH on 04 / September / 2023, 15:57:49
Let me clarify things a bit. Take another look at that 256GB card's picture. It showed the big partition formatted as exFAT, not FAT32. You're saying "this happens"? I find it more than passing strange that my 11-year-old camera knows how to format a partition as exFAT. It wasn’t until August 2019 that Microsoft published the exFAT specification, although it had been around since as early as 2006. (All this according to MS Bing/ChatGPT.) Not that CHDK is supposed to work with exFAT of course...
exFAT is the standard for SDXC cards, which were standardized in 2009. Cameras that support SDXC (as SX210 does https://www.usa.canon.com/support/p/powershot-sx210-is) must support exFAT, and when formatted a card will default to exFAT for cards larger than 32 GB.
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I ejected the card, threw the WP switch, inserted it (the SD card) into my sx210, and powered on. Canon started up and complained about the WP switch. I hit <ALT> and up came a CHDK menu. Yay!
Are you saying you saw the card locked message *and* CHDK auto booted (the splash screen appears when you turn on the camera)? This *really* should not happen. Or are you starting with a locked card an loading CHDK with "firm update"?

You can use "firm update" to load on any sized card, but you must do it manually every time you want to run CHDK, which is generally too inconvenient for everyday use.

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I got the message "failed to load lua.flt". It wasn't as annoying as that large "MISSING MODULE" message I got previously, but it may indicate something wrong with a build. Not sure what version of CHDK I'm using though...1.6 or 1.7 most likely.
It still means your installation is messed up somehow. CHDK will not function correctly if the modules are not found or not the correct version.
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It wasn't obvious how to actually snap a picture. During my futzing with CHDK the lens was closed and retracted. It wasn't possible to take a picture and see if my setup was actually working the way I had envisioned.
Half pressing the shutter outside of alt mode should switch to shooting mode.

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If I leave CHDK and go back to Canon (but not restarting the camera!) I get a message about the card WP switch. So, if I'm running CHDK I can't use the standard camera features
What do you mean by "leave CHDK"?

If CHDK starts (you see the CHDK logo splash screen), then CHDK is running until you turn off the camera.

CHDK "alt" mode allows you to access CHDK settings and run scripts. You access alt mode by pressing the CHDK "alt" button, which on your camera probably defaults to the video record button. You leave alt mode by pressing the alt key again. Any CHDK settings that affect shooting etc will still be applied.
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Offline BearOfNH

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Re: Help! 1.6.x, stuck on STICK. Canon SX210-IS 1.00c oldie but goodie.
« Reply #13 on: 04 / September / 2023, 23:30:51 »
Well, to cut to the chase and not bury the lede, I believe CHDK 1.6.1 is now running on my sx210. Hooray! The rest of this post is post-mortem and question responses ("answers" might be too strong).

So when last we left things, a file (?module?) "lua.flt" was missing indicating some sort of incomplete setup. No idea what happened there. In an effort to fix things I mounted the SD card on Windows (10-22H2) and proceeded to dance with various setup programs. STICK seemed to want to format my FAT32 drive, despite it already being set up, so I ran CHIMP (0.9.5) instead. As before, CHIMP claimed "No camera software detected!". I mean really, now, what the hell was it looking for, and why couldn't it mention that? Specifically...like what file name (if it's a missing file), using what path? CHIMP has its own directory tree structure so I ended up copying the CHDK 1.6.1 zip file to *every* *directory* in the CHIMP tree structure, to no avail. At some point I started getting runtime error messages (attached, maybe) to the effect of "Object reference is not to an instance of an object." I *do* understand what that means, but I have no idea how to recover. Fortunately there's no need. Somebody (maybe CHIMP, maybe STICK) was able to make the SD card bootable and apparently just unzipping to the card is all that's required. I can, at least, do that.

After wrestling with STICK and CHIMP (for which I really am grateful, despite appearances) and copying files manually, plus verifying "lua.flt" actually got copied, I dismounted the SD card, threw the WP switch, and put it in my camera. Powered up the sx210 and after many, many microseconds came the CHDK splash screen.

I realize now that what I had called the "CHDK menu" was really just the <ALT> shortcut menu. Fuzzy Noobie thinking.

At one point I was trying to hit <ALT>, which as noted was actually the Video record button (but which really should, to us beginners, be called "The button with the red dot"). Trouble is, I never just "hit" the Video button -- I pressed it and held it down. No menu -- instead the camera started Video recording. This is a feature, right? Allows for a momentary press to bring up the shortcut menu, but still allow for video recording? Or am I missing something?

To hash over an old topic:
Quote from: reyalp on 04 / September / 2023, 17:52:38
exFAT is the standard for SDXC cards, which were standardized in 2009. Cameras that support SDXC (as SX210 does https://www.usa.canon.com/support/p/powershot-sx210-is) must support exFAT, and when formatted a card will default to exFAT for cards larger than 32 GB.
Ah. All of this is news to me. Actually, unexpected good news. I stand corrected.


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It wasn't obvious how to actually snap a picture. During my futzing with CHDK the lens was closed and retracted. It wasn't possible to take a picture and see if my setup was actually working the way I had envisioned.
Half pressing the shutter outside of alt mode should switch to shooting mode.
OK. This is going to require some learning on my part. I am not used to half-pressing the shutter and, as noted elsewhere, I have fat fingers and my camera has tiny buttons. Nothing to be done there beyond trying.

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If I leave CHDK and go back to Canon (but not restarting the camera!) I get a message about the card WP switch. So, if I'm running CHDK I can't use the standard camera features
What do you mean by "leave CHDK"?

If CHDK starts (you see the CHDK logo splash screen), then CHDK is running until you turn off the camera.

CHDK "alt" mode allows you to access CHDK settings and run scripts. You access alt mode by pressing the CHDK "alt" button, which on your camera probably defaults to the video record button. You leave alt mode by pressing the alt key again. Any CHDK settings that affect shooting etc will still be applied.

Right, of course. What I meant by "leave CHDK" was "leave the <ALT> shortcut menu". Just another Noob-err, I kinda get it now.

The good news, really part of getting CHDK running, is that I was able to actually take a RAW format picture (!). I copied the file to my PC and fed it to GIMP, the free GNU Photoshop-like picture editor (he said, blithely-ignorantly). When GIMP opened the file a whole lot of magic happened, and somehow a Raw Therapee GIMP plugin appeared, and the "RAW" file showed up in its own window. Utterly amazing. I guess I'm easily impressed, or maybe it was just such a pleasant experience after fighting so much with other software.

One thing I noticed is that the RAW picture was somewhat curved near the edges. This is expected right? It's an artifact of the lens, no? Evidently this is fixed by the camera when it converts to jpeg. Well, that's grist for another day. CHDK seems to be working and that's enough for a long weekend. Once again, thanks for all the help and patience.
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Offline Mlapse

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Re: Help! 1.6.x, stuck on STICK. Canon SX210-IS 1.00c oldie but goodie.
« Reply #14 on: 05 / September / 2023, 02:38:54 »
Quote from: reyalp on 04 / September / 2023, 17:52:38

FWIW, while it's possible some combination of card and software quirks that require a low level format, I do not believe this is true as a general rule.

you do not have to take my word for it, it is easy to check my findings if you have a large sd card.
i've, by now, tested this on 3 different brands of speedy, large (micro)sd cards and did (re)formats at least a dozen times.
tested with 5 different cam models, they all have the same results.

all large exFAT cards formatted as fat32 cards become seriously slower, that's why i now use the exFat dual partition...it is something we discovered a few years ago when you first upped the wait time for boot and before phil created the fat/exfat combo.

if you then format those large sd card in cam they become exfat according to windows, tested that with a whole bunch of cams from the a480 onwards.
however, this fresh exFAT card on the pc has dips in the transfer speed that go below a few kb per second. only a low level format will restore the card close to factory speeds.
turning this into a single partition fat32 card for later model cams keeps the slow transfer speeds and occasionally crashes your cam during a shoot.

if you, without low level format, reformat them to dual partition (even after a year of single partition use) the chdk files are restored on the small fat partition.
and your cam will crash during a shoot, probably when it reaches some of the slow to write blocks (i have no proof of this, so when this happens is a guess)

In my world only a (windows) low level format will restore a former fat32 formatted sdxc close to it's original speed without dips in speed.



« Last Edit: 05 / September / 2023, 04:00:16 by Mlapse »
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Offline reyalp

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Re: Help! 1.6.x, stuck on STICK. Canon SX210-IS 1.00c oldie but goodie.
« Reply #15 on: 05 / September / 2023, 16:24:50 »
Glad to hear you got it working, despite the frustration
Quote from: BearOfNH on 04 / September / 2023, 23:30:51
I realize now that what I had called the "CHDK menu" was really just the <ALT> shortcut menu.
Ah right, the help screen / shortcut menu. FWIW you can turn this off in CHDK under CHDK Settings -> Menu Settings. The shortcuts will still be the same, it just stops the menu from blocking your view.

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At one point I was trying to hit <ALT>, which as noted was actually the Video record button (but which really should, to us beginners, be called "The button with the red dot"). Trouble is, I never just "hit" the Video button -- I pressed it and held it down. No menu -- instead the camera started Video recording. This is a feature, right? Allows for a momentary press to bring up the shortcut menu, but still allow for video recording? Or am I missing something?
Yes, it's intended that way, so you can access the original function. On your camera you should be able to switch the alt button to the Play button (blue triangle in square) in the CHDK menu under CHDK Settings -> ALT mode button. It will have the same behavior where long press triggers the original function, but may be more convenient if you want to use video.

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OK. This is going to require some learning on my part. I am not used to half-pressing the shutter and, as noted elsewhere, I have fat fingers and my camera has tiny buttons. Nothing to be done there beyond trying.
FWIW, for shooting generally (with or without CHDK), you'll likely get better focus and exposure results if you half press and wait for the camera to be ready rather than doing a full press right away.

If you want to start the camera in shooting mode, you should be able to do that by holding the power button pressed a bit longer (I generally hold it until the lens starts to move). Not this only applies to initial power on, not switching out of play.

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One thing I noticed is that the RAW picture was somewhat curved near the edges. This is expected right? It's an artifact of the lens, no? Evidently this is fixed by the camera when it converts to jpeg.
Yes, that's normal. Raw processing software like Raw Therapee (the full standalone program at least, I'm not familiar with the gimp integration) should give options to correct it, either by using a lens profile or manual adjustment. Not that if you do manual adjustment, the amount required will depend on the zoom setting.
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Offline BearOfNH

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Re: Help! 1.6.x, stuck on STICK. Canon SX210-IS 1.00c oldie but goodie.
« Reply #16 on: 05 / September / 2023, 18:39:21 »
Quote from: reyalp on 05 / September / 2023, 16:24:50
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One thing I noticed is that the RAW picture was somewhat curved near the edges. This is expected right? It's an artifact of the lens, no? Evidently this is fixed by the camera when it converts to jpeg.
Yes, that's normal. Raw processing software like Raw Therapee (the full standalone program at least, I'm not familiar with the gimp integration) should give options to correct it, either by using a lens profile or manual adjustment. Not that if you do manual adjustment, the amount required will depend on the zoom setting.
For future readers who may run across this, I discovered the following. Opening the raw (.DNG) file in GIMP brought up a Raw Therapee (v5.9 for me) plugin that displayed the picture, which looked a little curved at the edges. Hitting Alt-t ("transform") changed the display to the right of the picture, with a number of potentially confusing options. Have no fear! Clicking on "Profiled Lens Correction" opened up a box titled "Lens Profile" with several radio buttons. I chose "Manually Selected", which allowed me to find my camera/lens combination. Naturally, with my luck, my camera model ("Canon PowerShot SX210 IS") was not on the otherwise quite lengthy list of models with known profiles. Instead I chose what might be the nearest model, SX160 IS, and most likely lens "Canon PowerShot SX160IS & compatibles, with CHDK's DNG" (yes, it said "CHDK's"!). Once selected, it appeared to correct the edge distortion although I think there might be a tiny tad of a curve on the left. But that might just be an "optrical" illusion. Take a look at the attached (with any luck) image pair and see if the door at the left (ahhh, left side of the picture on the right) doesn't look a bit curved. Anyhow that's a way to adjust raw images for curvature.
Just trying to pay it forward.
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Offline reyalp

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Re: Help! 1.6.x, stuck on STICK. Canon SX210-IS 1.00c oldie but goodie.
« Reply #17 on: 05 / September / 2023, 21:52:55 »
Quote from: BearOfNH on 05 / September / 2023, 18:39:21
Instead I chose what might be the nearest model, SX160 IS, and most likely lens "Canon PowerShot SX160IS & compatibles, with CHDK's DNG" (yes, it said "CHDK's"!).
FWIW, SX160 won't be an exact match, it's a 28-448 mm equivalent (16x) F3.5–5.9 while SX210 is 28-392 (14x) F3.1–5.9. Comparing similar models, it appears only SX220 and SX230 are likely to have the same or very similar optics to SX210.
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Offline BearOfNH

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Re: Help! 1.6.x, stuck on STICK. Canon SX210-IS 1.00c oldie but goodie.
« Reply #18 on: 06 / September / 2023, 15:30:27 »
Quote from: reyalp on 05 / September / 2023, 16:24:50

FWIW, SX160 won't be an exact match, it's a 28-448 mm equivalent (16x) F3.5–5.9 while SX210 is 28-392 (14x) F3.1–5.9. Comparing similar models, it appears only SX220 and SX230 are likely to have the same or very similar optics to SX210.
Outstanding. Thank you!

If you (or heck, anybody) have any more pearls of wisdom, please share. Now. I would much rather discover my failings today than on the day of the eclipse (8-Apr-2024, but I'll be out of touch days before then).
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