Helping Get CHDK More Popular - General Chat - CHDK Forum

Helping Get CHDK More Popular

  • 37 Replies
  • 24648 Views
*

Offline adcz

  • ***
  • 151
  • Canon S5 | Before Thou Smiteth Me, Readeth Sig
    • OSFlower
Helping Get CHDK More Popular
« on: 30 / May / 2008, 08:35:00 »
Advertisements
A lot of people on the forum believe in keeping the CHDK community as small as possible. While they might have some good points in doing so, I largely disagree with that philosophy. It destroys the advantages that the open-source-ness of the project has created. I believe that the CHDK community should dedicate a lot of its efforts into making as many people find out about CHDK as possible. Professionals, techies, even Newbies, who have just boughten their very first camera.

CHDK is an awsome program. It really is the start, as I have written in http://meanpc.com/digital-cameras/38-digital-cameras/187-chdk--camera-20.html, is the start of Camera 2.0, where people don't just use the camera, but actually "write" the camera. Remember just a few years ago, when "website" was considered just a static document that come big corporations made, which only they had access to through software such as Dreamweaver? Well a few years ago it all changed. We got Wikis, Blogs, Forums, you name it! The same for cameras, CHDK is the Wiki of the Camera.

Another thing, why do you think Ubuntu (Linux) and Wikipedia were so successful? Was it because of the amount of time put in to write the code? I doubt it. What Ubuntu did, that revolutionized Linux, was make it easy for people to use. The world is full of a lot of computer-retarded people, by our standards at least. Us techies think much different from them, and whenever they make a simple mistake or don't know something, we laugh at them. I think it is that attitude that drove n00bs away from Linux for a long time. I don't know about you guys, but I spend a lot of my time trying to promote the use of computers to these kinds of people. They are just afraid of using technology. If they keep being afraid, then technology will not move forward. Think about it...would you rather have a tiny group of people, like Microsoft, slowly working on a lame operating system, or have 1/2 of the US writing the source code for the next version of Linux. It is just obvious-the more the better!

In my vision on CHDK, it will be available to ANYONE, not in the sense that they could download it if they want, but in the sense that they can install it, easily. I believe that a 60-year-old woman, who just came out of CircuitCity with her new S5 should be able to install and take advantage of CHDK on her camera.

The current CHDK website is far from simple for the average user. I consider myself a very experienced computer user, and still it took me 30 minutes to figure out how CHDK works, what it does, will it ruin anything, etc, an hour or so to find an easy way to get it on the card. Now imagine how long it would take a 60-yo grandma to do it!

There are tons of simple solutions to these problems. However, unfortunately, I only know php "well", so I can only help you out on the web-end. I strongly encourage the writers of CardTricks to take my suggestions though. I thought about the simplest way of getting CHDK onto the card. Here it is:
1) Person visits a short domain name (I have found a few great ones that CHDK could use, but I will not post them here because somebody, or a bot, might register them). On the front page, we have the "Newbie" section and the "Advanced" Section, clearly labeled.
2) In the Newbie Section, there is a BIG install link
3) User clicks the Install Link
4) User sees a menu where he/she can select their camera, first narrowing down by the series, then by model (ex: S Series, then S5). See
   Drivers, utilities and software updates for your Brother Product
for an example, although my proposed version is a bit tweaked.
5) A Download Window Opens Up, a zip file (ex: S5.zip) starts downloading. Inside the zip file are two files, CardTricks, and the build
6) User opens up CardTricks (btw, if you guys package this as a self-extracting exe, it would be even easier)
7) CardTricks gives user simple, animated instructions, of taking the SD card out of the camera, placing it into a card reader, then placing the card reader into the USB drive
8) CardTricks automatically detects card (you can have it constantly cycling through drives A:/ thru Z:/ trying to find a Removable Device)
9) CardTricks asks "is ___ your drive?"
10) CardTricks does everything else - formats, makes bootable, copies over the zip of the build from the folder it is in.
11) When CardTricks is done, a simple animation is shown, take the card out of the reader, flit the write protect switch to On, place back into the camera.
12) CHDK itself should have a beginner and an advanced mode. When people are faced with large menus they get scared, and get discouraged from using the software. The beginner mode should have very basic functions, such as a battery meter, text file reader, calendar, games, how-much-space-is-left-o-meter :), you get the point.
13) When user gets good at cameras, he/she can switch to advanced mode.

If you dedicate your time into making a version of CardTricks that does all of that automatically, I promise to dedicate my time in the web-end, making it easier for users to find information.

Next up, is money issues. A lot of you might be thinking, this is open-source, so no money should be involved. Ideally, that would be the case. However we live in a capitalist world, making this quite hard, especially if this project is going to become popular. There are expenses everywhere - servers space, bandwidth, advertising (yes, advertising is a must!). Also, the devs of CHDK need money to buy cameras to take apart, and work with. I doubt that they would want to throw away $300 for an S5, just so that they can write a program. DataGhost did :) but not a lot of people are like DataGhost. We need a way to make money for these Devs, so that they can be able to continue their work. Also the selection of cameras this is available for is not too big. It should definitely be expanded, to other brands even. All of this takes money.

I am not saying to start charging money for CHDK, that would be awful. Would destroy the advantages of Open Source. I suggest taking an "Ubuntu" alternative :). Ubuntu offers its OS for free, support for free, however it also offers paid support (for companies), and PRECONFIGURED COMPUTERS. I suggest we do one of the following:
* Start Selling Memory Cards with CHDK pre-configured for a certain camera
* Start Selling Memory Cards with certain features pre-configured (customers say what they need)
* Start Selling Canon Cameras with MemCards w/CHDK
* The standard merchandise - shirts, pants, cuts, hats, buttons, etc

If you think about it, all of these options are good for both CHDK AND the public. Have you ever gone to RadioShack, with their $40 1GB cards (a few months ago). People are willing to pay $40 for a gig at their local store. Everybody knows that now, you can buy 4GB for $15. I suggest selling 4GB cards for $20. Newbies will still save tons of money, and we get our $5 bonus. Same thing for selling cameras. Stores overprice...a lot. At a BestBuy (a normal store), a Canon S5 costs $350 + tax (http://www.bestbuy.com/site/olspage.jsp?skuId=8297513&type=product&id=1172881524725). I bought my S5 for $270. That means they overpriced their cameras by more than $80! I don't think it is fair to trick people like that, into buying expensive cameras. I suggest we team up with Canon, buy a few of their cameras in bulk and start selling them, with CHDK pre-installed for say..$290 in the case of the S5. I assume they will sell it for around $250 to us, so that is $40 earnings right there. We are not tricking the customers, it is fair. We are the lowest price on the market. $60+ savings. Plus we give the extra bonus of CHDK preinstalled. A lot of people don't want to mess around with their cameras. This way, we mess around with them for them. And of course the standard merchandise will get people interested "ooh? CHDK? what's that? oh cool! I'll go download it!". You might call me a capitalistic, but I am just trying to help the general public!

I see a big future for Cameras! And it is up to you guys, if CHDK is going to start this future!

Tell me what you think :) I am open to suggestions/criticism!
« Last Edit: 30 / May / 2008, 08:53:39 by adcz »
Email me at adz@jewc.org for questions/comments/etc or aim me at adzempire!
---
STOP!! Before thou smiteth me, please PM me the reason! . Criticism = bad, constructive criticism = good.

If you wanna applaud, no reason necessary, I know I'm wonderful :P

*

Offline BB

  • ***
  • 164
Re: Helping Get CHDK More Popular
« Reply #1 on: 30 / May / 2008, 10:08:20 »
Everyone here is a volunteer--so changing to a capitalist model may cause many of the developers to loose interest.

Also, CHDK has been sliding under the "Canon Radar" for the moment... If CHDK starts to involve money--then they will simply lock up any new models and prevent CHDK from being ported to new cameras--and it dies anyway.

There have been a few posts around here that discuss the issues here--and while nothing stops you from helping new users and making a business out of the support--it has never been a big draw for anyone here.

And regarding Canon--it appears that they already have made one or two changes already that have prevented CHDK porting/functions... Dry OS will not load via the "Update Firmware" function and on the A590, Canon has (apparently) locked up the methods previously used to dump the firmware for porting (by preventing loading of any software--new/changed encrypted loader?):

A590

So--until or unless somebody figures out the changes to newer model cameras--I have a concern that CHDK may have already hit the end of the road and may be very difficult to port to any new models of Canon cameras (A590 and those yet to come out). A very difficult business model indeed.

-Bill
« Last Edit: 30 / May / 2008, 13:11:05 by BB »

*

Offline ewavr

  • ****
  • 1057
  • A710IS
Re: Helping Get CHDK More Popular
« Reply #2 on: 30 / May / 2008, 12:11:29 »
So--until or unless somebody figures out the changes to newer model cameras--I have a concern that CHDK may have already hit the end of the road and may be very difficult to port to any new models of Canon cameras (A590 and those yet to come out).

IMHO CHDK is not too interesting thing for "powerful" hackers (unlike iPhone, PlayStation etc.), otherwise FI2 format would be hacked some months ago.
And who prevent to anybody to buy A590 (even broken), desolder memory chip and read it?


*

Offline wontolla

  • ****
  • 413
  • S3 & G9 & A720
Re: Helping Get CHDK More Popular
« Reply #3 on: 30 / May / 2008, 12:32:30 »
Hi adcz.

To the php programmer:
I think it is a great idea to build that site and I'm glad that you offer your knowledge and time for it. Is it possible to host it in a free server? (at least at the begining). I know they are very limited regarding php commands etc but it would solve the "money" issue. If not possible, I suggest 50 of us donate $1 and you set up the server. We just need to find other 49 brave souls willing to risk the dollar in case you dissapear with the bounty.

To the capitalist:
IMHO, CHDK needs no money (maybe, and just maybe hosting expenses but I could easily be wrong). I believe you, you want to help, but the purpose of the capitalist model is not "to help comunities" but "to make money". Ubuntu is there to make a profit, not to help linux grow.

Let me tell you a story that reflects my conception of CHDK:

The rich industrialist from the North was horrified to find the Southern fisherman lying lazily beside his boat, smoking a pipe.
"Why aren't you out fishing?" said the industrialist.
"Because I have caught enough fish for the day," said the fisherman.
"Why don't you catch some more?"
"What would I do with it?"
"You could earn more money" was the reply. "With that you could have a motor fixed to your boat and go into deeper waters and catch more fish.
"Then you would make enough to buy nylon nets. These would bring you more fish and more money. Soon you would have enough money to own two boats . . . maybe even a fleet of boats. The you would be a rich man like me."
"What would I do then?"
"The you could really enjoy life."
"What do you think I am doing right now?"


 Which would you rather have: a fortune or a capacity for enjoyment?


*

Offline adcz

  • ***
  • 151
  • Canon S5 | Before Thou Smiteth Me, Readeth Sig
    • OSFlower
Re: Helping Get CHDK More Popular
« Reply #4 on: 30 / May / 2008, 13:07:38 »
Also, CHDK has been sliding under the "Canon Radar" for the moment... If CHDK starts to involve money--then they will simply lock up any new models and prevent CHDK from being ported to new cameras--and it dies anyway.

Hmm...well I suggested working out a partnership w/Canon. They sell us cams, we put CHDK on them. They get money, CHDK gets money, customers get discount. Everyone happy :)
Email me at adz@jewc.org for questions/comments/etc or aim me at adzempire!
---
STOP!! Before thou smiteth me, please PM me the reason! . Criticism = bad, constructive criticism = good.

If you wanna applaud, no reason necessary, I know I'm wonderful :P

*

Offline adcz

  • ***
  • 151
  • Canon S5 | Before Thou Smiteth Me, Readeth Sig
    • OSFlower
Re: Helping Get CHDK More Popular
« Reply #5 on: 30 / May / 2008, 13:13:42 »
Hi adcz.

To the php programmer:
I think it is a great idea to build that site and I'm glad that you offer your knowledge and time for it. Is it possible to host it in a free server? (at least at the begining). I know they are very limited regarding php commands etc but it would solve the "money" issue. If not possible, I suggest 50 of us donate $1 and you set up the server. We just need to find other 49 brave souls willing to risk the dollar in case you dissapear with the bounty.

To the capitalist:
IMHO, CHDK needs no money (maybe, and just maybe hosting expenses but I could easily be wrong). I believe you, you want to help, but the purpose of the capitalist model is not "to help comunities" but "to make money". Ubuntu is there to make a profit, not to help linux grow.

Let me tell you a story that reflects my conception of CHDK:

The rich industrialist from the North was horrified to find the Southern fisherman lying lazily beside his boat, smoking a pipe.
"Why aren't you out fishing?" said the industrialist.
"Because I have caught enough fish for the day," said the fisherman.
"Why don't you catch some more?"
"What would I do with it?"
"You could earn more money" was the reply. "With that you could have a motor fixed to your boat and go into deeper waters and catch more fish.
"Then you would make enough to buy nylon nets. These would bring you more fish and more money. Soon you would have enough money to own two boats . . . maybe even a fleet of boats. The you would be a rich man like me."
"What would I do then?"
"The you could really enjoy life."
"What do you think I am doing right now?"


 Which would you rather have: a fortune or a capacity for enjoyment?

Heh. Nice story :) But I have to disagree with you on the Ubuntu make money part. If they REALLY wanted to make money, they would charge a fee for Linux. People will pay it, no doubt. The point of these "paid" services is to encourage people to use Ubuntu. Ever since Ubuntu came out, the use of Linux skyrocketed. I remember the time I would go up to people and they would ask, which OS do you use, and I would say Linux, and they would be "huh?". Ubuntu came out, now I tell people, I use Ubuntu, and they are like "I use Ubuntu toooo!"

About the hosting...I suppose we might need a paid host later on, but doesn't SourceForge offer free hosting w/unlimited everything? And we do not really need any "special" php functions except the zip and mail() functions...maybe the GD image kit later on. I singled up for the CHDK project now. But thanks for the offer :)

If you really want a fundraiser, I suggest buying a domain. Have everyone on CHDK donate 10 cents, and get a domain for CHDK. I have a few good ones, which I can't tell because people/bots will steal :)
« Last Edit: 30 / May / 2008, 13:15:24 by adcz »
Email me at adz@jewc.org for questions/comments/etc or aim me at adzempire!
---
STOP!! Before thou smiteth me, please PM me the reason! . Criticism = bad, constructive criticism = good.

If you wanna applaud, no reason necessary, I know I'm wonderful :P

*

Offline BB

  • ***
  • 164
Re: Helping Get CHDK More Popular
« Reply #6 on: 30 / May / 2008, 13:35:14 »
So far, Canon appears to have dropped SDK support for most of their P&S camera lines (Gx and Sx series are the only supporting current models?):

Canon Consumer Products

And, even then, it looks like the SDK only is on the PC/Mac side--It controls the camera to the extent that the USB connection is supported by the on-board camera firmware--I don't think it adds any functionality to the camera itself(?).

At this point, Canon has an entire distribution infrastructure--Perhaps they would talk to you about a new business model... But that would probably take quite a bit of money to interest them....

However, because this opens their internal software/hardware to anyone (including competitors)--I would suspect that this would take quite a bit of money to get them to go against "self interest" of corporate security.

Obviously, there have been companies before that have opened their hardware and software before (IBM PC's--Microsoft, Mainframe peripherals--via lawsuits from competitors, and Sun--first they offered hardware and later their OS--vs somebody like Apple which has kept a closed hardware/OS environment).

I guess you can always try and see what happens. It would be interesting to see if they would offer the sort of support that CHDK needs (at least the "keys to loading software"). Could also try the IBM peripheral competitor's anti-trust methods (don't recommend, and don't think there is enough $$$ to even begin something like that)...

-Bill

Re: Helping Get CHDK More Popular
« Reply #7 on: 31 / May / 2008, 08:29:50 »
thread opener: if you knew this was already being discussed there was no need for a new thread and at the wrong place. cheers


*

Offline adcz

  • ***
  • 151
  • Canon S5 | Before Thou Smiteth Me, Readeth Sig
    • OSFlower
Re: Helping Get CHDK More Popular
« Reply #8 on: 31 / May / 2008, 09:16:12 »
thread opener: if you knew this was already being discussed there was no need for a new thread and at the wrong place. cheers

Where else was it being discussed?
Email me at adz@jewc.org for questions/comments/etc or aim me at adzempire!
---
STOP!! Before thou smiteth me, please PM me the reason! . Criticism = bad, constructive criticism = good.

If you wanna applaud, no reason necessary, I know I'm wonderful :P

*

Offline BB

  • ***
  • 164
Re: Helping Get CHDK More Popular
« Reply #9 on: 31 / May / 2008, 12:50:23 »
I guess threads like these?

Money and CHDK
Asking Canon to release their source code
Help making CHDK and the forum better

But, I am not a moderator here--so take what I posted as just a helpful comment...

-Bill

 

Related Topics


SimplePortal 2.3.6 © 2008-2014, SimplePortal