"How-To" check firmware version on Canon SD800 IS, install and use CHDK - page 2 - AllBest's Builds - CHDK Forum
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"How-To" check firmware version on Canon SD800 IS, install and use CHDK

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Offline MikeP

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Re: "How-To" check firmware version on Canon SD800 IS, install and use CHDK
« Reply #10 on: 20 / July / 2008, 08:45:08 »
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Gary,

Thanks for the thoughtful, detailed post.  The fact that you had a similar experience will save me a lot of time trying to prove to myself that I'm not crazy.  ;)

Quote from: jgdavidson on 20 / July / 2008, 01:51:15
I have the Canon SD800 IS camera with firmware 1.00D and I am using CHDK build #51-444.  I have elected to name my RAW files using CR2.  The pdf manual for CHDK is now out-of-date for this build because several screens have changed. 

As you have described above, and I have experienced, Custom Auto ISO really doesn't work at all in the SD800 IS camera.

Unfortunately, this build takes away the ability to override AV [aperture] settings and instead offers ND filter state OFF, IN or OUT.  The Canon SD800 IS supports variable apertures [e.g. 2.8, 3.5, 4.0, 4.5, 5.0, 5.8], so it is not as simple as selecting the ND filter IN or OUT.  In Build #50, you could select an override for aperture, but I don't know if it really works.

I'm not clear on all the implications of this but it is my understanding that the SD series has no aperture or aperture control per se, and only mimics that with the ND.  Thus it's not clear to me what "aperture control" means in this context.

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In addition, with this latest build #51-444, overriding ISO doesn't work either for Bracketing or at the higher level directly in Extra Photo Operations.

FWIW, I can't imagine what the usefulness would be of using either varying ISO or aperture for bracketing -- my shutter speed bracketing works wonderfully for HDR, etc.

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The biggest deficiency that I have discovered with CHDK with the Canon SD800 IS, like you mentioned above, is that after you have taken a photo and you flip to Display to review your image with detailed shooting information, you don't see the settings for ISO, TV or AV that were used to generate the image.  Of course, I can use a program [e.g. BreezeBrowser] external to the camera to display the *.DNG file and see the EXIF metadata, but you really need to see this data in the camera, as you can with a DSLR [e.g. Canon EOS 40D].

I have also discovered that at least seven EXIF data items, which exist in the original JPG file, do not get transferred when you Convert to a DNG file.  Although this is not the most important data which is missing, there is really no reason for it to be missing.

When using bracketing, I have discovered that under certain circumstances, the ISO will not be shown in the DNG file when viewed in external software.  I suspect that this is a size of number issue and once the ISO exceeds say 500, it won't display.

I was quite surprised to discover that CR2 files, right out of the SD800 IS camera, can be read by BreezeBrowser software but not by Photoshop CS3.  Even if Photoshop could read the file, you should still Convert to DNG files because this is how you port the EXIF data from the JPG file to the raw file [DNG].

If you are using bracketing and doing it based on ISO [once it is working properly], another input parameter is required so that you can specify at what increment the ISO is increased or decreased as you shot in continuous mode.

Again, I would think shutter speed would be much more useful than ISO for bracketing (you want several copies of the same image with ever increasing noise?)

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In Extra Photo Operations, I discovered that if you set Override shutter speed to 1/250 and the corresponding Value factor to Off, and you then set Override ISO value to say 15 and the ISO Value factor to 10, the resulting ISO override will be 250 and not 150 when you take a photo with these settings.

Here is another major deficiency:  If you delete an image from within the camera, it will do the usual and delete the JPG file, but it won't deleted the CR2 raw file for that same image.

Yes, I've noticed that too.

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I hope that my hours of testing and this review regarding CHDK has provided constructive criticism to make CHDK eventually into a viable , trusting and powerful enhancement to Canon P&S cameras. 

Regards,
Gary

Well, I know I've appreciated it.










[/quote]
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Offline fe50

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Re: "How-To" check firmware version on Canon SD800 IS, install and use CHDK
« Reply #11 on: 20 / July / 2008, 10:18:58 »
Quote from: Gary
Unfortunately, this build takes away the ability to override AV [aperture] settings and instead offers ND filter state OFF, IN or OUT.  The Canon SD800 IS supports variable apertures [e.g. 2.8, 3.5, 4.0, 4.5, 5.0, 5.8], so it is not as simple as selecting the ND filter IN or OUT.  In Build #50, you could select an override for aperture, but I don't know if it really works.

On the Ixus series Canon emulates the aperture by the ND filter, they have no mechanical aperture (iris), in earlier builds there was left copied code from other models, that's why there were those settings...

I'm not sure whether it could be helpful on the Ixus models to use this "aperture settings" again to set up an aperture value and then let the Canon firmware do the settings to emulate this...perhaps i'll find some time to check this...

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I'm not clear on all the implications of this but it is my understanding that the SD series has no aperture or aperture control per se, and only mimics that with the ND.  Thus it's not clear to me what "aperture control" means in this context.
You'll get the max. F-stop (e.g. F8.0 on SD870) with ND filter IN & min. F-stop with ND filter OUT (F2.8 ), that's the aperture emulation on the Ixus series (i think also in combination with other settings like shutter speed, ISO...)

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The biggest deficiency that I have discovered with CHDK with the Canon SD800 IS, like you mentioned above, is that after you have taken a photo and you flip to Display to review your image with detailed shooting information, you don't see the settings for ISO, TV or AV that were used to generate the image.  Of course, I can use a program [e.g. BreezeBrowser] external to the camera to display the *.DNG file and see the EXIF metadata, but you really need to see this data in the camera, as you can with a DSLR [e.g. Canon EOS 40D]...
Yes, that's a problem, the Canon OSD (and the review) always show the "Canon" values, not the "real" ones; you can't trust the Exif data, sometimes a look to the histogram may help.

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I was quite surprised to discover that CR2 files, right out of the SD800 IS camera, can be read by BreezeBrowser software but not by Photoshop CS3.  Even if Photoshop could read the file, you should still Convert to DNG files because this is how you port the EXIF data from the JPG file to the raw file [DNG].
dng4ps-2 adds a DNG standard header (including the Exif data) to the raw file, some other usefull things like compressing (lossless) the RAW image or adding white balance information (if the camera is supported) can also be done...

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Here is another major deficiency:  If you delete an image from within the camera, it will do the usual and delete the JPG file, but it won't deleted the CR2 raw file for that same image.
There's an option in the filebrowser menu (you'll find it in "Miscellaneous stuff") on some newer builds (Juciphox, perhaps latest Autobuild but not sure) called "Purge raw", more informatins in this post: Erase JPG along with corresponding CRW in any folder.
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Offline MikeP

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Re: "How-To" check firmware version on Canon SD800 IS, install and use CHDK
« Reply #12 on: 20 / July / 2008, 10:29:24 »
Fe50,

Thanks for your responses here.

The still unanswered question (for me, anyway) is whether the Custom Auto ISO works or whether I have just not yet set it up correctly.  I'd be a little surprised if it never worked and no one ever mentioned it yet except Gary and I.

-- Mike
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Offline fe50

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Re: "How-To" check firmware version on Canon SD800 IS, install and use CHDK
« Reply #13 on: 20 / July / 2008, 10:56:42 »
Quote from: MikeP on 20 / July / 2008, 10:29:24
...The still unanswered question (for me, anyway) is whether the Custom Auto ISO works or whether I have just not yet set it up correctly.  I'd be a little surprised if it never worked and no one ever mentioned it yet except Gary and I.

Mike,
i haven't answered this because i never used this feature in real, i always set the ISO manually, in most cases 80 or sometimes ISO 100; the higher ISO values are very noisy on my SD870, the built-in AutoISO feature uses to high values for my taste, for me the HiISO is unusable... ;)
With the description in the wikia ( CHDK firmware usage / AllBest - Extra Photo Operations's -- Custom Auto ISO) some test will be done...perhaps i can test it later...
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Offline jgdavidson

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Re: "How-To" check firmware version on Canon SD800 IS, install and use CHDK
« Reply #14 on: 20 / July / 2008, 12:27:44 »
First I want to thank both fe50 and MikeP for taking the time to reply to my most recent detailed review of CHDK for the Canon SD800 IS camera.

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The biggest deficiency that I have discovered with CHDK with the Canon SD800 IS, like you mentioned above, is that after you have taken a photo and you flip to Display to review your image with detailed shooting information, you don't see the settings for ISO, TV or AV that were used to generate the image.  Of course, I can use a program [e.g. BreezeBrowser] external to the camera to display the *.DNG file and see the EXIF metadata, but you really need to see this data in the camera, as you can with a DSLR [e.g. Canon EOS 40D]...


Quote
Yes, that's a problem, the Canon OSD (and the review) always show the "Canon" values, not the "real" ones; you can't trust the Exif data, sometimes a look to the histogram may help.

Yes, looking at the histogram will show a visual representation of the exposure information, but that is really not good enough.  Why can't CHDK be enhanced to add display information to the Display review image mode, just like it presently does in the Record image mode?  Do you not know what the real ISO, TV and AV values are when you are in Display review image mode?  I know that the "real" values for these settings are certainly in the EXIF metadata in the JPG file.

Thanks.

Gary
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Offline fe50

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Re: "How-To" check firmware version on Canon SD800 IS, install and use CHDK
« Reply #15 on: 20 / July / 2008, 13:02:41 »
Quote from: jgdavidson on 20 / July / 2008, 12:27:44
...Yes, looking at the histogram will show a visual representation of the exposure information, but that is really not good enough.  Why can't CHDK be enhanced to add display information to the Display review image mode, just like it presently does in the Record image mode?  Do you not know what the real ISO, TV and AV values are when you are in Display review image mode?  I know that the "real" values for these settings are certainly in the EXIF metadata in the JPG file
In review Canon reads the data stored in the JPEG & display it, so CHDK have to save the "real" values in the JPEG file or it have to overwrite the values in the JPEG - that's not so easy to programm, and there are still some problems left: we know the "real" settings we set up in CHDK, e.g. a ISO value of 10 or a 1/100k shutter speed - but that's NOT the "real" value, it's only what we set up - how can we meassure the true "real" data ?

Yes, some informations are stored in the Exif makernotes - fields, they can be transfered with the EXIFTools / "Auto CHDK to EXIF"
(see more information in the wikia here: FAQ: I've shot some RAW pictures. How do I process_them ?)

LjL is also working on a solution, perhaps this could be a milestone managing the metadata... Exif in RAW mode
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Offline MikeP

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Re: "How-To" check firmware version on Canon SD800 IS, install and use CHDK
« Reply #16 on: 20 / July / 2008, 16:17:38 »
Sheesh.  Now I've got the bit between my teeth and I can't let it go.  My goodness, photography is getting awfully geeky -- I'm going to have to go out and take some pictures one of these days.   ;)

OK, thanks fe50 for putting me on a trail that eventually lead me here:

http://aeropic.free.fr/H&B/AUTO_ISO_patcher/

This seems to be a fairly quick, painless way to batch process a directory of Canon .jpg files, pull out the actual ISO values (for AUTO ISO settings) and rewrite them back to the file so everybody's EXIF viewer can show actual ISO values.  OK, so that at least helps the testing considerably....

However, I still can't get the AllBest Bld. #50 "custom auto ISO" to do anything sensible -- the shutter speed varies all over the lot, as does the ISO -- neither pays much attention to my settings.  I must be omitting something.  I assume that all I need to do is set the camera ISO to "Auto",  make sure "Enable Custom Auto ISO" is on in Extra Photo Operations, and set "Minimal Shutter Speed" to 1/60s.  [Just what "minimal shutter speed" means is another interesting question, which we will leave for now. ;))

Am I forgetting something?  Do I have the wrong idea entirely?  Has anyone reading this ever got it to do something useful?

-- Mike
« Last Edit: 20 / July / 2008, 17:25:56 by MikeP »
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