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DNG profiles : the end of RAW color problem?

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Offline DBgit

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DNG profiles : the end of RAW color problem?
« on: 29 / July / 2008, 17:20:27 »
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Hi,

I just found that Adobe released Camera Raw 4.5. As a new feature, they introduced what they call "camera profile". In theory, these profiles allow to closely match the color and "look" of the JPG of a specific camera when shooting RAW. Lots of information about this can be found on the Luminous Landscape web site or on the the Adobe Labs web site.

Quote from Luminous Landscape:
"These Color Matching profiles allow the new versions of Lightroom and Camera Raw to create images which accurately reproduce the colour and tonal rendition that one gets from in-camera JPGs, or from using Canon's DPP and Nikon's Capture NX raw processing software. "

These profile can also be embedded in the new DNG 1.2 standard (announced last April). If I understood properly, they replace the color matrix that was used in the previous versions of Camera Raw and in the old DNG standard. I just took a rapid look at the profiles provided by Adobe. Each profile is about 110 KB (and there is several profile available for each camera). They thus seems to contain MUCH more information than the previous color matrix (which is basically a simple 3x3 matrix). However, it looks like Adobe only have profiles for DSRL from Canon and Nikon until now. At least there is a DNG Profile Editor that can be used to create new profiles...

ArtDen, I'm wondering if these new profiles could be implemented in DNG4PS-2. It would be great if DNG4PS-2 could output a complete camera profile rather than a matrix when comparing a JPG and RAW! BTW is DNG4PS-2 compatible with (or work with) the new updated DNG 1.2 standard?
« Last Edit: 29 / July / 2008, 19:51:36 by DBgit »
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Offline vit40

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New !!! - DNG 1.2 profiles - A620
« Reply #1 on: 30 / July / 2008, 14:58:35 »
There is no need to implement profiles into DNG4PS, as you can choose them in ACR 4.5 -- if you have them

So as first attempt, I'll start with A620. Here's the link

    http://rapidshare.com/files/133641259/A620_Profiles.zip.html

Procedure (A620 owners only):

- install ACR 4.5
- unzip the profiles to CameraProfiles folder (read note.txt inside zip).
- start the CS3 (AFTER UNZIPING PROFILES)
- open some A620 dng, go to Calibration page and choose between profiles.

I made four profiles, using my calibration for A620 (quite different from ArtDen's) and recipes for 400D:

- default - my A620 calibration without any recipes added
- Standard - my calibration + 400D standard recipe
- Landscape - my calibration + 400D landscape recipe
- Portrait - my calibration + 400D portrait recipe

On the top of these four profiles, you'll se "Embeded" profile (like before). That is color matrix embeded in dng - in case your dng is made with DNG4PS2, it will be ArtDen's calibration

This is only a quick attempt - I didn't have enough time to thoroughly check the results, just wanted to see how it works, so take this as pre-beta profiles for A620 ...

If other owners want to make similar profiles for other cameras, using Profile Editor like me, there is a problem - you don't have base profile to start with. ArtDen's calibrations are way oversaturated, with positions of primary colors about twice as far from white point than in Adobe's and mine calibrations for digicams with the same sensors. Coffin's calibrations are much better in this regard, but they all have wrong white balance, and red primary mostly too far towards violet, so ... we still have the same problem.
« Last Edit: 31 / July / 2008, 04:09:13 by vit40 »
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Offline ranocchio

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Re: DNG profiles : the end of RAW color problem?
« Reply #2 on: 01 / August / 2008, 10:23:37 »
Hi vit40, 2 questions:
- what converter did you use for generate the DNG? dng4ps or dng4ps2?
- can I use your A620 profiles for my A610? I tried, but without results...

ACR 4.5 seems very interesting...  :)

thank you
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Offline vit40

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Re: DNG profiles : the end of RAW color problem?
« Reply #3 on: 01 / August / 2008, 10:46:38 »
If you open a dng from A610, ACR will show you only profiles for that camera, so these ("pre-beta") A620 profiles won't work. You can try changing all strings "A620" to "A610" in these profiles (with some hex editor) and/or in filename. Anyway, sensor in A610 is different, so color matrix is at least slightly different

I'm still using DNG4PS 1.14 to generate dng-s and Adobe Dng Converter to compress them. ArdDen added option to customize color matrix several weeks ago, and there's is no option to customize 2 other tags I also changed in DNG4PS (Baseline Exposure and Baseline Nosie), so I still need 2 programs anyway. I admire his great efforts, but as I said several times and is now confirmed by Adobe - you can't come even close to camera color rendition by tweaking the the matrix way he did, as you have only 9 parameters to play with. You need a sort of "faithful" color matrix and lookup tables (recipes in Adobe's terminology)

With introduction of profiles, color matrices embeded in dngs are becoming a sort of obsolete, because you can choose the matrix or profile in calibration tag of ACR (if you have them for your camera). So far, Adobe provided only profiles (beta version at the moment) for Canon and Nikon SLR-s calibrated according to built-in camera picture styles

I also found another note: in ACR, you should set all parameters to default values, brightness to +50, contrast to +25, curve to Medium Contrast to get the same (well - similar) result as with in-camera jpeg
« Last Edit: 01 / August / 2008, 10:54:18 by vit40 »
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Offline hiker_jon

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Re: DNG profiles : the end of RAW color problem?
« Reply #4 on: 01 / August / 2008, 11:38:47 »
Hi,

Isn't ACR 4.5 a plugin to other (expensive) Adobe programs.  Is there any way I can use ACR in a freeware program?
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Offline ranocchio

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Re: DNG profiles : the end of RAW color problem?
« Reply #5 on: 01 / August / 2008, 15:39:35 »
Quote from: vit40 on 01 / August / 2008, 10:46:38
If you open a dng from A610, ACR will show you only profiles for that camera, so these ("pre-beta") A620 profiles won't work. You can try changing all strings "A620" to "A610" in these profiles (with some hex editor) and/or in filename. Anyway, sensor in A610 is different, so color matrix is at least slightly different

I'm still using DNG4PS 1.14 to generate dng-s and Adobe Dng Converter to compress them. ArdDen added option to customize color matrix several weeks ago, and there's is no option to customize 2 other tags I also changed in DNG4PS (Baseline Exposure and Baseline Nosie), so I still need 2 programs anyway.


I tried to change the strings and it seems to work.
But you are using dng4ps ver 1.14 or 1.1.4?  If I use 1.1.4d I lost metadata...
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Offline vit40

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Re: DNG profiles : the end of RAW color problem?
« Reply #6 on: 01 / August / 2008, 15:52:28 »
Yes, it's 1.1.4 version, dated 17.04.2007. Exif from jpeg is embeded into dng during conversion (at least important parts like aperture, exposure, zoom ... - just maker's data like image distance etc are missing), provided that "add metadata from jpeg" is checked, of course
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Offline ranocchio

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Re: DNG profiles : the end of RAW color problem?
« Reply #7 on: 01 / August / 2008, 18:04:38 »
Quote from: vit40 on 01 / August / 2008, 15:52:28
provided that "add metadata from jpeg" is checked, of course


yes, I did but I don't see metadata in ACR...
The jpegs are in the same directory and have the same name of raw files.
The same procedure works well with dng4ps2...

p.s: dng4ps 1.1.4 adds the string "PowerShotA610" into the dng, instead "PowerShot A610" (with space): this is a problem also with other plugins like PTlens, that doesn't recognize the correct camera/lens.

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Offline lukg

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Re: DNG profiles : the end of RAW color problem?
« Reply #8 on: 02 / August / 2008, 14:31:46 »
This is a great step for me!
Using my custom S5 matrix in dng4ps2 as starting point and the calibration provided by Profile Editor (thanks to LKS for the MacbethGretag Chart pics), I can obtain very close colors to original ones.
But I have some doubts...is there a way to create a DNG file readable by ACR without an embedded matrix?
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Offline DawMatt

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Re: DNG profiles : the end of RAW color problem?
« Reply #9 on: 23 / August / 2008, 06:27:31 »
Quote from: lukg on 02 / August / 2008, 14:31:46
Using my custom S5 matrix in dng4ps2 as starting point and the calibration provided by Profile Editor (thanks to LKS for the MacbethGretag Chart pics), I can obtain very close colors to original ones.
Did LKS take photos of a real chart on you behalf?  If they are photos of the calibration images on screen (a'la Denis's steps for taking calibration photos) then the results will never be as good as if taken of a real chart.  I'm buying a Color Checker for this reason.  Just tossing up between a mini and full size version - I've read that the mini can be used with this process, and being able to carry it around means you can build custom recipes for any shoot where you are dealing with weird lighting.

Quote from: lukg on 02 / August / 2008, 14:31:46
But I have some doubts...is there a way to create a DNG file readable by ACR without an embedded matrix?
Don't believe this is possible.  I also don't believe it is necessary.  Adobe would be crazy to build a profile editor that had to work off a flawed color matrix as its foundation.

Matt

(PS Yes, its been a while since I've been around...)
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