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building usb-remote-cable

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Re: building usb-remote-cable
« Reply #380 on: 04 / January / 2012, 17:36:00 »
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Charging your battery with 5V from the USB port is a very bad idea and might cause the battery to explode and set your house on fire.

I must say I find the above comment quite insulting, for three reasons:

1. The output voltage for most cell phone chargers is 5v, as I confirmed it is with the charger from my old phone (which is where the battery I used came from). 

2. I am not foolish enough to leave the battery charging unattended or for prolonged periods of time.

3. The above YouTube clip was of somebody that was INTENTIONALLY blowing up Li-ion batteries, and for all we know he could have been charging them with 10x the designated operating voltage.

If I should stop posting within a few weeks I have probably died of Li-ion toxicity or burnt my house down.  If that happens I will be sure to modify my USB remote accordingly.  Thank you for your concerns.

P.S. Despite feeling slightly insulted by your comment, I do appreciate the constructive criticism.
« Last Edit: 04 / January / 2012, 18:20:53 by NightPhotoNoob »
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Re: building usb-remote-cable
« Reply #381 on: 04 / January / 2012, 21:03:20 »
1. The output voltage for most cell phone chargers is 5v, as I confirmed it is with the charger from my old phone (which is where the battery I used came from). 
But is that the voltage the "charger" supplies to the cell phone or the voltage that the cell phone actually uses to charge its internal battery ?   The phone may very well internally "step down" the voltage it uses to charge the battery or (even better) the phone may control the charging current, allowing the charge voltage to float just high enough to maintain a safe charging current.   
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Re: building usb-remote-cable
« Reply #382 on: 04 / January / 2012, 21:18:37 »
But is that the voltage the "charger" supplies to the cell phone or the voltage that the cell phone actually uses to charge its internal battery ?   The phone may very well internally "step down" the voltage it uses to charge the battery or (even better) the phone may control the charging current, allowing the charge voltage to float just high enough to maintain a safe charging current.

This is something I have considered... I will have to test this with my volt-meter and see if there is a difference in the output of the phone vs. the output of the charger.  If not then I am fine with my current design.  If so, I will use parts from my old phone to make a safe charger for my remote.
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Re: building usb-remote-cable
« Reply #383 on: 04 / January / 2012, 21:26:32 »
@NightPhotoNoob,

This is a public forum where people ask for advice. Conduct some basic scientific research before you post.

Ignorance is bliss until a fire occurs or worst the Li-ion battery explodes injuring people.

It is very obvious from your comments that you possess no electronics experience.

fvdk’s post is correct and you are wrong in your assessment’s of fvdk’s post.

Five volts DC is the charging voltage. What causes Li-ion batteries to heat up and explode is the charging current. Li-ion chargers use specialised switched mode charging chips. Depending on the consumer device the charger may be built into the charging device or the consumer device. In a lot of cases the actual Li-ion charger circuit is built into the consumer device for the simple reason that the charger chip can monitor the Li-ion battery charging temperature. Manufacturers use the charging temperature to intelligently fast rapid charge the Li-ion battery within the manufacturers’ specifications.

There is one certainty.

A USB port does not contain an intelligent Li-ion charger circuit.

Long term there is no guarantee that charging a Li-ion battery from a USB port without the use of a specialised Li-ion switched mode charging chip is a reliable and safe method of charging a Li-ion battery.

Re: building usb-remote-cable
« Reply #384 on: 04 / January / 2012, 21:33:08 »
The issue with charging Lithium-Ion batteries is very real - they *will* explode if mistreated. You don't have to do much to set one off, and charging beyond 4.2V is pretty much a guaranteed method of doing it.

Proper chargers follow a very specific constant-current then constant-voltage charging regimen, and if you don't have the proper electronics to follow that, the *only* safe way to charge is with a constant voltage under 4.2V, which excludes direct USB connection.

That said, you can get tiny and very cheap (under a couple of dollars) usb phone battery chargers from ebay or dealextreme, which you can use to safely charge one of these batteries.

Re: building usb-remote-cable
« Reply #385 on: 04 / January / 2012, 21:38:04 »
Manufacturers use the charging temperature to intelligently fast rapid charge the Li-ion battery within the manufacturers’ specifications.

FYI, this is only true for the older NiCad/NiMH battery chemistries. Li-Ion/Li-Poly charging only requires voltage (important) and current (less important) monitoring to determine when to switch from fast constant-current charging to the slower (and automatically self-limiting) constant 4.2V voltage charging. Temperature monitoring is purely a safety measure.

Re: building usb-remote-cable
« Reply #386 on: 04 / January / 2012, 22:28:01 »
@NightPhotoNoob,

This is a public forum where people ask for advice. Conduct some basic scientific research before you post.

Ignorance is bliss until a fire occurs or worst the Li-ion battery explodes injuring people.

It is very obvious from your comments that you possess no electronics experience.

fvdk’s post is correct and you are wrong in your assessment’s of fvdk’s post.

Five volts DC is the charging voltage. What causes Li-ion batteries to heat up and explode is the charging current. Li-ion chargers use specialised switched mode charging chips. Depending on the consumer device the charger may be built into the charging device or the consumer device. In a lot of cases the actual Li-ion charger circuit is built into the consumer device for the simple reason that the charger chip can monitor the Li-ion battery charging temperature. Manufacturers use the charging temperature to intelligently fast rapid charge the Li-ion battery within the manufacturers’ specifications.

There is one certainty.

A USB port does not contain an intelligent Li-ion charger circuit.

Long term there is no guarantee that charging a Li-ion battery from a USB port without the use of a specialised Li-ion switched mode charging chip is a reliable and safe method of charging a Li-ion battery.

@thepanoguy,

Perhaps you should conduct some basic research on how to treat people with a little bit of respect.  It is made very obvious by your post that you do not possess any of the qualities that are, in return, deserving of respect.  Not only are all of the statements I made in response to fvdk's post accurate, I respected him and his response enough to thank him for concerning himself with my well being.  That's called being polite... you should try it someday.  So next time, before you blatantly call me an ignorant moron, perhaps you should actually attempt to comprehend the true meaning of my statements. Then if you still feel the need to prove how wrong I am, then at least have the decency to be polite and show me some respect in your posts.  If you believe that I have zero electronics experience, then the proper thing to do would be to POLITELY explain to me what I am doing wrong so I can correct myself and prevent personal injury or destruction of property.

That being said, your explanation of the Li-ion charging process is greatly appreciated.  That information will make me rethink my design and I will find a way to correct it ASAP, before I will need to recharge that battery again. 

P.S.  I don't enjoy having to troll people, but when I do, I do it to make a point.  I was wrong, but that doesn't give you the right to rudely comment about my lack of knowledge in that particular subject.  This is a public forum where people ask for advice, and I thank you for yours.  Perhaps you should consider taking mine. 

Thanks for the feedback.
« Last Edit: 04 / January / 2012, 22:40:01 by NightPhotoNoob »
Cameras: Canon EOS Rebel T3/1100D w/ 18-55mm lens kit
Canon PowerShot SX150 IS
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Re: building usb-remote-cable
« Reply #387 on: 04 / January / 2012, 22:35:30 »
The issue with charging Lithium-Ion batteries is very real - they *will* explode if mistreated. You don't have to do much to set one off, and charging beyond 4.2V is pretty much a guaranteed method of doing it.

Proper chargers follow a very specific constant-current then constant-voltage charging regimen, and if you don't have the proper electronics to follow that, the *only* safe way to charge is with a constant voltage under 4.2V, which excludes direct USB connection.

That said, you can get tiny and very cheap (under a couple of dollars) usb phone battery chargers from ebay or dealextreme, which you can use to safely charge one of these batteries.

I will look into that.  Perhaps I will simply remount my whole remote setup onto the body of my old phone (being that its LCD has been removed) and simply use it to charge the battery.

Thanks for the advice!
« Last Edit: 04 / January / 2012, 22:51:51 by NightPhotoNoob »
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Canon PowerShot SX150 IS
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Re: building usb-remote-cable
« Reply #388 on: 05 / January / 2012, 04:21:44 »
Charging your battery with 5V from the USB port is a very bad idea and might cause the battery to explode and set your house on fire.

I must say I find the above comment quite insulting, for three reasons:

1. The output voltage for most cell phone chargers is 5v, as I confirmed it is with the charger from my old phone (which is where the battery I used came from). 

2. I am not foolish enough to leave the battery charging unattended or for prolonged periods of time.

3. The above YouTube clip was of somebody that was INTENTIONALLY blowing up Li-ion batteries, and for all we know he could have been charging them with 10x the designated operating voltage.

If I should stop posting within a few weeks I have probably died of Li-ion toxicity or burnt my house down.  If that happens I will be sure to modify my USB remote accordingly.  Thank you for your concerns.

P.S. Despite feeling slightly insulted by your comment, I do appreciate the constructive criticism.

I have no idea why you find my warning insulting as I am only warning you about a very serious safety issue.

The cell phone charger you mention, is just a 5V power supply, the actual charging of the battery is done inside the phone which contains a charger circuit, most likely something like this:



As you can see, this is a very small and very simple circuit but it is necessary and you simply can not safely charge a li-ion battery without such a circuit. Li-ion chargers follow a CC/CV (constant current/constant voltage) algorithm. In the CC stage, a constant current is applied until the battery voltage reaches 4.2V at which time it than changes to the CV stage where the voltage is held at 4.2V and the current slowly drops and than terminates when the current is < 3% of the battery capacity.



Manufacturers of Li‑ion cells are very strict on the correct setting because Li-ion cannot accept overcharge and the charging voltage should never exceed 4.2V (+/- 0.05%)

When li-ion cells are used inside consumer electronics, unprotected cells will be used and the device will have a circuit that protects them from over charging or discharging. If they are used in flashlights (like 18650 cells), the cells will have an added protection circuit.

http://www.lygte-info.dk/info/battery%20protection%20UK.html

You might think that it is trivial but In March 2007, Lenovo recalled approximately 205,000 batteries at risk of explosion. In August 2007, Nokia recalled over 46 million batteries at risk of overheating and exploding. One such incident occurred in the Philippines involving a Nokia N91, which uses the BL-5C battery.

In December 2006, Dell recalled approximately 22,000 laptop batteries from the US market. Approximately 10 million Sony batteries used in Dell, Sony, Apple, Lenovo/IBM, Panasonic, Toshiba, Hitachi, Fujitsu and Sharp laptops were recalled in 2006. The batteries were found to be susceptible to internal contamination by metal particles. Under some circumstances, these particles could pierce the separator, causing a short-circuit.

In October 2004, Kyocera Wireless recalled approximately 1 million mobile phone batteries to identify counterfeits.

Frans

Re: building usb-remote-cable
« Reply #389 on: 05 / January / 2012, 06:07:47 »
Exactly why I admitted I was wrong a few posts ago.  Considering that I "possess no electronics experience" I was unfamiliar with the differences between the different types of rechargeable batteries.  Again, I will have to modify my design by using the base of my old phone in order to charge the battery. 

Or I may build my own circuit by using that circuit diagram you posted, I will have to see if I have the proper resistors and capacitors.  I doubt I will have the IC; I may have to get it from RadioShack if they have it.

I apologize for offending you; I really meant it in a sarcastic manner.  I didn't mean to spark such a controversy.

This afternoon I will make the necessary modifications to my remote, I will photograph the procedure and post it so you guys can verify that it will no longer blow my house up.  But remember, I "possess no electronics experience" according to thepanoguy, so it is likely my remote will still cause some sort of catastrophe, be it an explosion or health concern.

Thanks for the advice.
« Last Edit: 05 / January / 2012, 06:11:57 by NightPhotoNoob »
Cameras: Canon EOS Rebel T3/1100D w/ 18-55mm lens kit
Canon PowerShot SX150 IS
Canon PowerShot A530

 

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