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How can I shoot without the lenses?

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Offline sh1981

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Re: How can I shoot without the lenses?
« Reply #60 on: 25 / August / 2011, 16:28:57 »
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A few thoughts about image stabilization...

I used exiftool http://www.sno.phy.queensu.ca/~phil/exiftool/

Got the info placed in exif.txt, attached.


Notice the parameters:
Image Stabilization             : On, Shot Only

Also notice:
Drive Mode                      : Continuous Shooting

My question...

If image stabilization is not working, why is the exif showing otherwise?

Secondly, if the error is called ISDriveError, since the word 'drive' comes with Drive Mode, it wouldn't have any correlation, would it?

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Offline srsa_4c

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Re: How can I shoot without the lenses?
« Reply #61 on: 25 / August / 2011, 17:32:22 »
Quote from: sh1981 on 25 / August / 2011, 16:28:57
If image stabilization is not working, why is the exif showing otherwise?

I think it shows its current (official) setting. Since without SDM's intervention the camera would be nearly unusable, the Canon engineers chose not to care about errors here. I guess EXIF can't hold information like "Image Stabilization: Gone"  ;)

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Secondly, if the error is called ISDriveError, since the word 'drive' comes with Drive Mode, it wouldn't have any correlation, would it?

I do not fully understand what you mean, but the both words (drive) probably don't refer to the exact same subject. ISDrive could mean all the needed electrical/mechanical parts/circuits.

BTW, if I were in your place, I'd disable IS in the Canon settings (unless it's already disabled, and the EXIF values are completely incorrect).
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Offline sh1981

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Re: How can I shoot without the lenses?
« Reply #62 on: 26 / August / 2011, 06:20:17 »
Quote from: sh1981 on 25 / August / 2011, 16:28:57
If image stabilization is not working, why is the exif showing otherwise?
...

I think it shows its current (official) setting. Since without SDM's intervention the camera would be nearly unusable, the Canon engineers chose not to care about errors here. I guess EXIF can't hold information like "Image Stabilization: Gone"  ;)

Yes but the thing is, I didnt attach the exif of other two photos, it says On, Off or On Shoot Only
So really the exif is correctly telling when I have switched IS off or on. Chances are its just lying, probably reading whats selected in canon menu.

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Secondly, if the error is called ISDriveError, since the word 'drive' comes with Drive Mode, it wouldn't have any correlation, would it?

...

I do not fully understand what you mean, but the both words (drive) probably don't refer to the exact same subject. ISDrive could mean all the needed electrical/mechanical parts/circuits.

BTW, if I were in your place, I'd disable IS in the Canon settings (unless it's already disabled, and the EXIF values are completely incorrect).

Enabling or disabling does not seem to have any effect on anything.

The only funny thing is, I can't seem to notice any difference between the photos I took when I did have IS working, and ones I take now.

Either IS was of no use to begin with, or I just have a very steady hand. Could be that most of my photos have always been outdoors.

Yes I also tried what funnel suggested, zoomin in and all, doesnt make a difference.

After reading a bit on how to test IS, I have realised there is no magic shutter speed to test IS.

Purpose was to test if IS is really gone, even if it is, I have yet to miss anything.
« Last Edit: 26 / August / 2011, 06:25:20 by sh1981 »
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Offline HamiltonBrand

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Re: How can I shoot without the lenses?
« Reply #63 on: 27 / August / 2011, 01:37:22 »
Quote from: srsa_4c on 21 / August / 2011, 08:51:17
@HamiltonBrand

Since your post detailing your setup and camera got removed, you'll need to repeat that info.
I can't promise that you'll get an easy solution like sh1981, nor that it's possible at all.
What you should try first is getting the exact error message with the vers.req method. Read the posts / links here, if you're unsure how to do it. I assume, your camera shows an error message then shuts down when trying to start it in record mode. You should also check, how soon that error message appears after powering on in record mode.


@sh1981
 
Hi! Thanks for trying to help. I appreciate it.

What I'm trying to do is take a Canon SD800 and repurpose it into a Kodak Keystone K-8 8mm camera. Basically implanting the camera with the SD800 so it can shoot movies digitally. The sensor seems to be the perfect size and the LCD screen is big to fit barely.

Putting it in the 8mm would be a different challenge so I don't mind experimenting with an easier, simple camera like a cheap used Vivitar fixed lenses like Microfunguy mentioned. It would only take pictures though and I'm not sure yet if there's a CHDK for that (canon only?).

Anyways the blocker at the moment is that the camera displays this message "Lens error, please restart", then it flashes once and turns off automatically. This is because I took apart the lens array and accidently broke one plastic prong attached to the plastic lens ring. I was considering trying to use extra conductive epoxy to reconnect.

It was fun to beable to take the SD800 apart by components (lens array, flash, LCD, case, and the battery/selections area) and put it back together to work great before that tho.

Is it possible to:

Tell it to shoot without lens / do not auto shut down in CHDK?
Is it possible to configure the settings on the computer as it shuts down in 2 seconds before I can do anything?

Let me see if I can get the video I made showing the message...
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Offline Microfunguy

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Re: How can I shoot without the lenses?
« Reply #64 on: 27 / August / 2011, 06:02:08 »
You can take movies with the fixed lens Vivitars.

Apart from the bit you broke, is the rest of the lens assembly connected as usual via a FFC (flat, flexible connector) ?

Do you have a photo of the bit you broke ?

If it is just a piece of plastic why do you need conductive epoxy ?
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Offline HamiltonBrand

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Re: How can I shoot without the lenses?
« Reply #65 on: 29 / August / 2011, 02:36:18 »
Quote from: Microfunguy on 27 / August / 2011, 06:02:08
You can take movies with the fixed lens Vivitars.

Apart from the bit you broke, is the rest of the lens assembly connected as usual via a FFC (flat, flexible connector) ?

Do you have a photo of the bit you broke ?

If it is just a piece of plastic why do you need conductive epoxy ?

Hi Microfunguy,

Thanks for asking! Please see this link to see what I broke, it's originally attached to a plastic prong. I think it's responsible for making the lens array able to zoom back into compact position.

Link to pic: http://i.imgur.com/i2CLJ.jpg

See the 4 white dots? That's supposed to be connected to the other 4 white dots. This photo shows a similar part that I took off on the other end of the lens array to show what it looks like unbroken: http://i.imgur.com/uDAzZ.jpg

I figured reconnecting it by having a semi conductive epoxy might allow it to work again, in which i could tell CHDK to not auto-shut down. At least, that's the current strategy, unless there's a way to modify the settings on the CHDK in the memory stick on the computer instead.

I'm happy to hear that I can make videos with the fixed lens vivitars. I was looking into the chdk.wiki and couldn't find a Vivitar Build. Is it possible to control the frame rate and such with a vivitar? Part of the appeal is so I can analyze and experiment which fps rate would be ideal to preserve the authenticity of the 8mm camera in which it makes that particular noise and shuttering. Can you suggest an exact model to look for? I can't seem to find a vivitar fixed lenses that also plays video.

I noticed there's some more numbers and error related messages that may shine some more light into the auto-shut down now that I reviewed the video I made of trying to start it. I can't clearly see it here, so I'll look at it again tomorrow morning when I get to the office and share the numbers the CHDK program brought up along with the "lens error, please restart" message.
« Last Edit: 29 / August / 2011, 02:46:45 by HamiltonBrand »
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Offline Microfunguy

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Re: How can I shoot without the lenses?
« Reply #66 on: 29 / August / 2011, 06:08:08 »
Quote from: HamiltonBrand on 29 / August / 2011, 02:36:18
See the 4 white dots? That's supposed to be connected to the other 4 white dots.

That is an FFC (flat flexible connector).
Using silver-loaded conductive epoxy you may be able to mend it.
It looks like the signals to the tiny focusing stepper motor.
With skill and a temperature controlled iron you could probably use single-strand wire links and low-temperature solder.

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This photo shows a similar part that I took off on the other end of the lens array

Better version below.

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I was looking into the chdk.wiki and couldn't find a Vivitar Build.

I am not aware of anyone hacking Vivitars.
To remove the lens you do not need to.

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Is it possible to control the frame rate and such with a vivitar?

No, and it cannot be done with CHDK canon's either.

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I can't seem to find a vivitar fixed lenses that also plays video.

Google 'vivitar digital zoom 5mp' or 'vivitar digital zoom 8mp'

I recently obtained a Vivicam 8018 but have not modified it yet.


I understand what you are trying to do and it is something I have been interested in for some time.

With that in mind, I would advise you that you are wasting your time.

Of course, you will not be put-off by that  :)


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Offline HamiltonBrand

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Re: How can I shoot without the lenses?
« Reply #67 on: 29 / August / 2011, 19:39:51 »


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I can't seem to find a vivitar fixed lenses that also plays video.

Google 'vivitar digital zoom 5mp' or 'vivitar digital zoom 8mp'

I recently obtained a Vivicam 8018 but have not modified it yet.


I understand what you are trying to do and it is something I have been interested in for some time.

With that in mind, I would advise you that you are wasting your time.

Of course, you will not be put-off by that  :)

[/quote]

Hi Microfunguy, Thank you so much for your insight and clarification. Indeed, I will not give up on this project because the prospect of going around showing off this if it works is too cool. I'm setting my sights on a vivitar and found a few on craigslist (looks like it was stolen from tourists as most don't have a charger and are selling for as low as $30).

Hope you don't mind me asking this question again: Is it possible to edit settings on the CHDK build on the simcard over the computer instead of trying to fix this camera and then telling it to not auto-shut down for the SD800? I realized that I'm unsure if I understood it correctly, that the SD800 can be told to not auto-shut down via a setting. I want to experiment and see if it will still take pictures and video even without the lens array.  The focusing will occur in the 8mm camera.

Someone up the thread also mentioned that I can try taking it apart but leaving the lens array still connected to the camera, just put out of the way. I imagine this would take up space and i can work around it, but that will arise a new problem: is there a way to tell the camera via CHDK to ignore the focusing system and act as if the lens array does not exist?

I also have a canon SD200 which is slightly smaller. I got it from a friend who donated to this project because he lost his battery and I just need to get a new battery for this. I will try this again with this camera while looking for a vivitar to try that one out too.  For the SD200, this time, I will see if i can get it to shoot with the lens array still connected to the camera but separated from the sensor.
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Offline srsa_4c

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Re: How can I shoot without the lenses?
« Reply #68 on: 30 / August / 2011, 16:37:28 »
edit: Some of my statements below are not entirely correct or up-to-date, better ask to be sure!

Quote from: HamiltonBrand on 29 / August / 2011, 19:39:51
Hope you don't mind me asking this question again: Is it possible to edit settings on the CHDK build on the simcard over the computer instead of trying to fix this camera and then telling it to not auto-shut down for the SD800? I realized that I'm unsure if I understood it correctly, that the SD800 can be told to not auto-shut down via a setting. I want to experiment and see if it will still take pictures and video even without the lens array.  The focusing will occur in the 8mm camera.

(Some?) newer Canon cameras seem to have one or two firmware functions related to disabling (the automatic shutdown in case) of hardware errors: DisableLensError(), DisableISDriveError(). Examples of such cameras include A800, A2200, S95, IXUS105, IXUS120, IXUS310.
Your SD800 is much older than that, and has no such functions (at least in an easily recognizable form) in its firmware. Unfortunately, this also means that there may not be an easy solution for your problem.

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Someone up the thread also mentioned that I can try taking it apart but leaving the lens array still connected to the camera, just put out of the way. I imagine this would take up space and i can work around it, but that will arise a new problem: is there a way to tell the camera via CHDK to ignore the focusing system and act as if the lens array does not exist?

I have to link this thread again: http://chdk.setepontos.com/index.php?topic=3409.0
It's about an A530, with all of its optical system removed.

The parts which look like the one on your photo, are often sensors (if the copper traces are narrow). These provide some feedback about the state of the optical system. These consist of one LED (on one side) and one phototransistor (on the other side). If the light of the LED reaches the phototransistor, it behaves like a closed switch. If not, the "switch" is open. Google "cny36" for an example of such part.
I don't think you need to care about the motors, there may not be any (electrical) feedback from those.

Quote
I also have a canon SD200 which is slightly smaller. I got it from a friend who donated to this project because he lost his battery and I just need to get a new battery for this. I will try this again with this camera while looking for a vivitar to try that one out too.  For the SD200, this time, I will see if i can get it to shoot with the lens array still connected to the camera but separated from the sensor.

The SD200 may have less sensors than the SD800, as it also doesn't have IS yet.
It's one of the earliest CHDK-capable cameras, but it has no CHDK port. Just mentioning  ::)
« Last Edit: 21 / November / 2012, 14:41:00 by srsa_4c »
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Offline Microfunguy

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Re: How can I shoot without the lenses?
« Reply #69 on: 30 / August / 2011, 20:08:58 »
Quote from: HamiltonBrand on 29 / August / 2011, 19:39:51
Is it possible to edit settings on the CHDK build on the simcard over the computer instead of trying to fix this camera and then telling it to not auto-shut down for the SD800?

No.


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is there a way to tell the camera via CHDK to ignore the focusing system and act as if the lens array does not exist?

No, and if such a firmware function does work no-one has tried it yet.


David
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