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CHDK UI version 2.0 ?

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Offline reyalp

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Re: CHDK UI version 2.0 ?
« Reply #70 on: 04 / June / 2012, 15:47:12 »
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Quote from: waterwingz on 04 / June / 2012, 07:53:44
Not to take anything away from the current conversation about script parameters,  but its once again programmers adding features for the benefit of programmers I fear.
I disagree. The point is to make scripts (written by programmers) easier for users to use. The script UI is clearly a point of confusion for users, and there were suggestions earlier in this thread that popular "script" features should be in the C code, mainly because the script UI is clunky. This isn't just wrong from a programmers POV, it is bad for users.

Ideally, a user should not need to know or care if their intervalometer is a script or not. However, if it is script, that potentially gives them a much wider range of options more appropriate to their particular requirement, while at the same time not taking resources away from users who do not require the functionality.  If something needs to go into core code to get a first class UI, the amount of functionality with a first class UI will be much more limited.
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Offline outslider

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Re: CHDK UI version 2.0 ?
« Reply #71 on: 04 / June / 2012, 17:38:21 »
Well... I'm a regular user. I'm not a programmer but a chemist. I am 26 yo and bought my FIRST computer in 2003... Maybe not counting my old C64 and Nintendo:) I wouldn't say it is something very difficult to learn some basics of how does it work. The same is related to CHDK.

I'm affraid that CHDK is (and always will) be mostly used by people, who like to spend some time to learning and (the most important?) experimenting with the settings. On the forum there are a lot of questions like "I own xxx camera and would like to do yyy. Will this work?". The problem is that some users don't want to just try...

For me the CHDK interface is very intuitive. I just read the wiki, forum and at the end just try to do the things as I guess it should work. The ALT->shutter for script run is not confusing for me. Of course sometimes I pressed shutter, when I was in wrong mode, so the ALT could be better indicated than this small ALT text (which sometimes doesn't disappear out of ALT mode - some bug?).

If we want to play with the GUI I believe that the changes shouldn't be too big. To not break what is working good. There must be a good reason to change something. "The better is the enemy of the good" (Voltaire).

I know, that I proposed the iconic menu. But now I understand this is not a good way to follow. So, lets think, what are the real problems with gui. What is bad and should be made good. Not with what users have problems, but what is wrong. (IHMO)

The questions are:

What's wrong with the current gui?
What's wrong with the script settings? (waterwingz idea is very nice here)
What's wrong with the menu? (really something has to be done here?)
What's wrong with the ALT mode? (better indicator?)

However now I have a few days to find out what's wrong with my research programm that National Centre of Science doesn't want' to support ;)
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Offline waterwingz

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Re: CHDK UI version 2.0 ?
« Reply #72 on: 04 / June / 2012, 18:11:12 »
Quote from: reyalp on 04 / June / 2012, 15:47:12
I disagree. The point is to make scripts (written by programmers) easier for users to use.
I get it now.  The proposed changes to the scripting parameter mechanism would actually allow a rewritten user interface to be much more useful  ( as the descriptions and input parameter options are exactly what the UI will need to make the input menu more "user friendly").   Two somewhat separate projects that combined make for an even better user experience.
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Offline waterwingz

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Re: CHDK UI version 2.0 ?
« Reply #73 on: 04 / June / 2012, 18:19:37 »
Quote from: outslider on 04 / June / 2012, 17:38:21
What's wrong with the current gui?
I think the line of thinking is that its fine for setup & configuration.  But its too many menu hops and clicks to do the kinds of things you want / need to do when actually taking pictures.

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What's wrong with the script settings? (waterwingz idea is very nice here)
Again,  they are okay.  But its slow and awkward to switch scripts on the fly or to even have pre-configured scripts that you can activate quickly when a photo opportunity presents itself.

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What's wrong with the menu? (really something has to be done here?)
Well,  it could be rearranged (per my answer to your question 1 above).  Or the user menu beefed up for the same purpose.

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What's wrong with the ALT mode? (better indicator?)
The question is whether we can make things easier for photographers by changing what first happens when you enter <ALT> mode.

At various times,  people have admitted to me that they mostly leave the OSD off (and even CHDK unloaded) when taking pictures because it gets in the way.  So CHDK becomes a specialized tool that's only loaded when needed rather than a general tool that you keep available all the time.
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Offline outslider

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Re: CHDK UI version 2.0 ?
« Reply #74 on: 04 / June / 2012, 18:59:55 »
Quote from: waterwingz on 04 / June / 2012, 18:19:37
Quote from: outslider on 04 / June / 2012, 17:38:21
What's wrong with the current gui?
I think the line of thinking is that its fine for setup & configuration.  But its too many menu hops and clicks to do the kinds of things you want / need to do when actually taking pictures.

So I think we need a special, photo-related menu: overrides + basic raw. Ideally it could be launched by shortcut, but we have not enough buttons on cameras... One think that comes to my mind is, that we could do something like this:

- when Menu button is just shortly pressed it works as now (Canon menu for non-ALT and CHDK menu for ALT)
- when Menu is pressed longer than 1 s in any mode beside script it opens a very simple photo menu, which contain folowing entries:
*clear all
*shutter speed
*  shutter speed factor
*aperture
*subject distance
*ISO
*RAW on/off
*quality (needed here?)

This gives a nice, ready to use menu with the most important settings for shooting. 1s is enough time to not enter to this menu by an accident, but enough fast to enter here much faster than by CHDK menu. Other button could be used as well.


Quote from: waterwingz on 04 / June / 2012, 18:19:37
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What's wrong with the script settings? (waterwingz idea is very nice here)
Again,  they are okay.  But its slow and awkward to switch scripts on the fly or to even have pre-configured scripts that you can activate quickly when a photo opportunity presents itself.

I can once again say that I think your idea is the best one here and should replace the current one :)
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Offline waterwingz

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Re: CHDK UI version 2.0 ?
« Reply #75 on: 04 / June / 2012, 20:11:54 »
Quote from: outslider on 04 / June / 2012, 18:59:55
This gives a nice, ready to use menu with the most important settings for shooting. 1s is enough time to not enter to this menu by an accident, but enough fast to enter here much faster than by CHDK menu. Other button could be used as well.
Well,  the user can add all those choices to the user menu right now,  so other than the Menu press logic,  we already have all that.   Although it might be smart to use those entries as a default setting for the user menu - people can edit it from there.

I think I'll start plunking away at adding script loading to the user menu (with a hook for later when we figure out your "right arrow" idea).    I think philmoz is working on user configurable shortcuts although he hasn't exactly said so.

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Offline kidtree

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Re: CHDK UI version 2.0 ?
« Reply #76 on: 05 / June / 2012, 01:27:11 »
I'm still a newbie, but maybe that gives my two cents a little weight.
Part of the complexity problem is simply the huge universe of options CHDK adds to the camera.  Yes, it has a steep learning curve.  Part of that is necessary.
I agree that there's some strange logic in the logic of the Overrides page, and this discussion thread holds promise in alleviating that.
I have no interest at all in replacing text menus with icons.  Icons have to be memorized to be useful, and it's so much easier to read the menus and learn about how far down the most used menu lines will be found.  And a 2D table of icons must be navigated in two directions in most cases.  The current system may require me to click the Down button five times, but that may be better than clicking Down, then switch to Right to click that twice.
The worst obstacle to learning CHDK is spotty, scattered, outdated, and just plain wrong documentation.  That's understandable, given hackers' predilection for hacking, rather than organizing notes about what all the other hackers have been hacking.  Many of the updates to the docs refer feature phrases like, "This feature is obsolete since Release #419."  The current release is in the high 1800s now, and it's quicker and simpler to download and install the latest version than it is to absorb which limitations your old version suffers from!  As long as the documentation features tutorials and manuals that are several years out of date (and usually are undated!), CHDK will remain an esoteric toy for the most determined of geeks.
That said, I'm proud to count myself among the (lower) ranks of those geeks, and am deeply indebted to all who have worked so hard make my camera special.
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Offline waterwingz

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Re: CHDK UI version 2.0 ?
« Reply #77 on: 05 / June / 2012, 08:47:51 »
Quote from: kidtree on 05 / June / 2012, 01:27:11
I have no interest at all in replacing text menus with icons.
I think the icon idea is pretty much dead.

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The worst obstacle to learning CHDK is spotty, scattered, outdated, and just plain wrong documentation.  That's understandable, given hackers' predilection for hacking, rather than organizing notes about what all the other hackers have been hacking.
Too true.  People will work on what interests them - there are no paid staffers to make things pretty.

Its not all bad though.  Several of us have been continually marking obsolete pages as "Obsolete
when we find them.  And many of the key "how to" pages have been rewritten within the last year.  Most of the pages that link from the wiki "home page" are pretty good AFAIK.  Where the trouble starts is when you try to search - that takes you off into the wilds pretty quickly.

Any suggestions with how to deal with this ?   I was thinking that something easy to do might be another page that lists the "good" pages to read - sorted by subject.  I suppose that's lame but it might be handy and not too hard to do.

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Offline oronocova

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Re: CHDK UI version 2.0 ?
« Reply #78 on: 05 / June / 2012, 18:20:15 »
I'm not trying to steal this poster's thunder at all:
    http://chdk.setepontos.com/index.php?topic=8198.0;topicseen

...But his question brings up something else I have struggled with a couple times.  It would be nice to be able to add validation to the parameter input fields in the scripting menu.  So, like this poster stated you could more easily implement a fool-proof boolean input field, or otherwise set a min/max value.  Beyond that sometimes it would be nice to be able to directly input a number rather than using the incremental button presses, or have another button press that increments by a larger value than 1.  E.G. a intervalometer script with only a parameter of "seconds" and you want to have it only take a picture every 10 minutes.  (That requires a lot of button presses!  It would probably be easier in my given example to just edit the source of the script to start at 600 seconds, but that adds even more complexity for some users.)
« Last Edit: 05 / June / 2012, 18:22:41 by oronocova »
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Offline waterwingz

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Re: CHDK UI version 2.0 ?
« Reply #79 on: 05 / June / 2012, 18:29:24 »
Quote from: oronocova on 05 / June / 2012, 18:20:15
...But his question brings up something else I have struggled with a couple times.  It would be nice to be able to add validation to the parameter input fields in the scripting menu.  So, like this poster stated you could more easily implement a fool-proof boolean input field, or otherwise set a min/max value.
I think that's exactly where fudgey was going in this earlier post :
http://chdk.setepontos.com/index.php?topic=8151.msg86142#msg86142

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Beyond that sometimes it would be nice to be able to directly input a number rather than using the incremental button presses, or have another button press that increments by a larger value than 1.  E.G. a intervalometer script with only a parameter of "seconds" and you want to have it only take a picture every 10 minutes.  (That requires a lot of button presses!  It would probably be easier in my given example to just edit the source of the script to start at 600 seconds, but that adds even more complexity for some users.)
Have you noticed the little   +1  symbol in the upper right hand corner of every menu ?  If you use the zoom lever you can change it to 10, 100, 1000 etc.  And guess what ?  The value displayed there becomes the amount the parameter field changes each time you press the left or right arrow buttons.  Works in most other numeric field in the menus too.  Like many other things with CHDK,  its not obvious but once you learn about it,  life gets easier.
« Last Edit: 05 / June / 2012, 18:31:29 by waterwingz »
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