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CHDKPTP: S90 Primary Focal Plane Configuration - hacking out the CCD

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Offline SticK

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Re: CHDKPTP: S90 Primary Focal Plane Configuration - hacking out the CCD
« Reply #140 on: 09 / November / 2012, 12:15:16 »
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By the way, with your other project have you been able to determine is the CDS-TG-ADC on the S90 is a re-marked AD9923A, or some other?

Re: CHDKPTP: S90 Primary Focal Plane Configuration - hacking out the CCD
« Reply #141 on: 09 / November / 2012, 12:34:19 »
I don't have any access to an S90 so have no idea what chips are nearest the CCD connector.

Even though it will be tedious, you need to browse the entire English part of the strings file and extract the bits that refer to hardware.


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Offline SticK

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Re: CHDKPTP: S90 Primary Focal Plane Configuration - hacking out the CCD
« Reply #142 on: 09 / November / 2012, 12:46:23 »
Quote  "I don't have any access to an S90 so have no idea what chips are nearest the CCD connector."
Although it's not directly related to this thread it's interesting to know.  The chip nearest the connector is likely the one, but there are no manufacturer logos on it or obvious commercial PN.  For example, on the SX110 it is the AD part marked with logo.  So I was wondering if you had figured it out some other way.  Attached.

Quote "Even though it will be tedious, you need to browse the entire English part of the strings file and extract the bits that refer to hardware."
No problem - as I mentioned I plan to group them as well // it's on my TODO list but first let us understand the PI signals.

« Last Edit: 09 / November / 2012, 13:01:07 by SticK »

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Offline srsa_4c

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Re: CHDKPTP: S90 Primary Focal Plane Configuration - hacking out the CCD
« Reply #143 on: 09 / November / 2012, 13:29:09 »
The following site (they are selling camera parts, I guess) has an interesting collection: http://photo-parts.com.ua/parts/dbphp.php?part=canon


Re: CHDKPTP: S90 Primary Focal Plane Configuration - hacking out the CCD
« Reply #144 on: 09 / November / 2012, 13:46:22 »
The following site (they are selling camera parts, I guess) has an interesting collection: http://photo-parts.com.ua/parts/dbphp.php?part=canon

that leads to page 12 of the manual for this camera that uses the same timing generator chip as the G11 and S90 :-

http://photo-parts.com.ua/parts/Datasheets/AN30230Asony_dsc-w350_level-3_ver-1.0_sm_%5BET%5D.pdf


The chip is a  ADDI9003 CCD Signal Process Timing Generator.

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Offline SticK

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Re: CHDKPTP: S90 Primary Focal Plane Configuration - hacking out the CCD
« Reply #145 on: 09 / November / 2012, 14:44:50 »
ADDI9003 Analog Devices special: http://www.analog.com/Reliability_Data/CDA/RD_WaferFab_Results.asp

That's crazy // 0.18 micron CMOS process for an analog part.  This is quite a different topology to the AD9923A SX110 etc, because of the separate Sony CXA3841UR-T9 preamp (with the AD9932A, the CCD output goes directly to the 9923A CDS).  I could not find the spec sheet for the Sony part, but likely it is matched to the CCD and thus good reason to give the S90-types amazing dark performance with this set of chips, better than the already excellent AD9923A.  Nice find.

Re: CHDKPTP: S90 Primary Focal Plane Configuration - hacking out the CCD
« Reply #146 on: 09 / November / 2012, 15:53:59 »
the separate Sony CXA3841UR-T9 preamp (with the AD9932A, the CCD output goes directly to the 9923A CDS).  I could not find the spec sheet for the Sony part

Not sure what you are referring to.

That circuit diagram is not for the S90.

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Offline SticK

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Re: CHDKPTP: S90 Primary Focal Plane Configuration - hacking out the CCD
« Reply #147 on: 09 / November / 2012, 17:21:04 »
Quote "That circuit diagram is not for the S90."
Yes I know // I am trying to understand the architecture.  The S90 does not have the same CCD buffer amp as the schematic.  Instead it has this one:
http://www.sony.net/Products/SC-HP/datasheet/90205/data/a6811921.pdf

See p10: on the lower right you see the CDS-ADC.  That is the big chip (ADDI9003 that you found) in the lower right corner of the photo too.  In my mind this architecture in part explains the excellent dark performance because the amplifier is not CMOS, but bipolar with a must-have ultra-low-noise-figure input (and a PNP-NPN complementary output), p2.

In the attached photo I removed the CCD connector so you can see the tiny 6-pin amp (mark 91A948), center.

edit:
A more detailed explanation is here:
http://chdk.setepontos.com/index.php?topic=8801.msg93012#msg93012
« Last Edit: 11 / November / 2012, 00:01:21 by SticK »


Re: CHDKPTP: S90 Primary Focal Plane Configuration - hacking out the CCD
« Reply #148 on: 09 / November / 2012, 17:52:02 »
I'm curious why you think your camera has a low dark current? Can you post a ~5 minute darkframe (or better 2 to get an idea of the readout noise) at a low iso setting in DNG format?
Dark current is only effected by sensor technology and not by pixel size/digic version etc. so your camera should only perform mediocre at dark current (no offense intended).
The cmos cameras i've checked were better at dark current than the ccd cameras that i've looked at.
Maybe we can compare the results, it could prevent spending too much time working on a wrong camera either for you or for me.

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Offline SticK

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Re: CHDKPTP: S90 Primary Focal Plane Configuration - hacking out the CCD
« Reply #149 on: 09 / November / 2012, 22:01:25 »
@casrap
You are fairly new to this endeavor it seems to me, so you missed my rationale for the S90 choice which I had peppered over two huge threads on the SX110 and S90.  The choice for my application took months of analytical work with these and S50 and S70 cameras.  That was followed by massive support and effort to make S90 camera to work well and give predictable error-free performance for what I need, from the gurus of this forum to whom I am extremely grateful: CHDKPTP remote control, which is essential to my specific application, works perfectly due their intense dedicated effort, in addition to programmatic capability that I had described already in the INTRODUCTION on the first page here. 

When I describe something I choose my words very judiciously.  In my recent posts here, you'll find I refer to "dark performance," not "dark current."  They are not all synonymous.  Google lectures on the numerous sources of sensor noise such as 1/f noise, shot noise, fixed pattern noise, readout noise, among others like cosmic rays and pixel volume (size & depth), in terms of photoelectron-to-current transformers such as floating diffusion amplifiers and how they relate to signal-to-noise-ratio (SNR) in an imaging system, and try to understand well how correlated double samplers work, and how their own different architectures have an impact on SNR of the final product.  Dark current is a measure of photoelectrons/pixel/s, it is temperature sensitive and is only part of the total noise in an imaging system.

Quote "The cmos cameras i've checked were better at dark current than the ccd cameras that i've looked at"
If by "dark current" you mean SNR under long exposures, you're trying to compare apples and spaghetti with the only similarity is that they are both foods.  When analyzing two different cameras, electrical light collection conditions (exposure time & VGA amplifier gain) have to be *exactly* the same, CCD sizes must be exactly the same (if not, you have to compensate by modifying the flux), and the flux falling on the CCD must be identical, otherwise your comparison is of no use.  When done right, even one CCD camera can have very different dark performance from the next CCD camera.

Quote "I'm curious why you think your camera has a low dark current? Can you post a ~5 minute darkframe (or better 2 to get an idea of the readout noise) at a low iso setting in DNG format?"
You cannot measure "dark current" independently of "readout noise."  Both are (and others) always present and combined.  On the PowerShots I've tested, you can't set a 5 minute exposure, only 15s.  CHDK extends it 64s, but you run into other limitations characteristic of small-format CCDs (1/1.7" in the S90) that I have covered in my other threads.

« Last Edit: 09 / November / 2012, 23:31:05 by SticK »

 

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